Effects of summoning on summoned warriors

[KevinJ]

Originally Posted by Skarg

Yep! That friend also suggested it could be an interesting idea to run an ironic twist game where the players keep getting summoned to fight for wizards, and have to figure out how to stop it, perhaps by figuring out where those wizards are...

Like several unexplored details in TFT, it was interesting wondering about how/whether to explore filling those in, and maybe more interesting left blank for GMs to do interesting things, in some cases. Like this!! -->

LOL! Could be a whole comedy antagonist, that would fit in well in my original TFT campaign. It'd make it even more ironic if they were actually incorrect that anything real was being hurt...

I thought it might logically be a clue that summons always had the same stats/equipment and no injuries (and also that teleporting something nearby is so much more difficult), so it seemed likely they were projections or "knots of force" or something manifested out of energy rather than actually brought from someplace, even though that has some interesting possibilities.

I was thinking it was a joke, but PETS has turned into a faction of Prootwaddles... Proot! er... PETS! PETS!

I agree that leaving it 'undisambiguated' does allow for GMs to come up with game specific explanation for the spell. Hell, each 'sommon' could be up to the GM. A sufficiently wolf-like summons is indistinguishable from a wolf. As long as the critter summoned is on par with a wolf it could be a valid varient.

The same for where the summons comes from.

If you chose that all summoning was 'demonic' the every creature is summoned from 'hell' (or your name for the same place, like New York) and, while they would have the same stats as listed in the spell, the actual creature would be some form of minor 'demon' controlled by the caster using the normal summoning rules.

If you wanted all summoned beings to be angelic to fit your world, then they all become celestial beings.

So long as the stats remain the same, it really doesn't matter what they look like or where they come from.

Then we have the aspect of unsummoned or dead. And that too, should fit the world.

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by Steve Jackson

OTOH, since summoned creatures have no will, they might just be created beings, regardless of the name the Cidri wizards put on the spell.

In my mind, summoned beings (wolves, bears, myrmidons, dragons, etc.) are simply mana made incarnate. They are not "real" creatures, although they behave like them. Demons are real demons, though.

[JLV]

I wonder if this would be a place where the concept of "true names" would come into its own -- a summoned being with a "true name" is an actual being (e.g., a Demon). A summoned being without one is a "knot of force," and in effect is a more substantial form of illusion...

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by JLV

I wonder if this would be a place where the concept of "true names" would come into its own -- a summoned being with a "true name" is an actual being (e.g., a Demon). A summoned being without one is a "knot of force," and in effect is a more substantial form of illusion...

Yeah, I like that.

[zot]

Originally Posted by JLV

I wonder if this would be a place where the concept of "true names" would come into its own -- a summoned being with a "true name" is an actual being (e.g., a Demon). A summoned being without one is a "knot of force," and in effect is a more substantial form of illusion...

When I read "true names", but before I read further, I immediately got a different picture. I was thinking you meant that knowing "the name of the wolf lets you tap into the wolf archetype or totem to form magical energy into a real wolf but one that is temporary. Each summoned wolf would be unique and authentically a wolf but cease to be when the spell ends, a wolf that could have been.

That framework would be grabbing something alive from somewhere else but allowing a wolf potential that never was to have a chance to be. In that light, maybe some wizards keep their summoned creatures around as long as possible so that they can have a longer time to exist. It's kind of a tragic situation, very hard to say whether bringing one into existence is good or evil.

[JLV]

That's an interesting concept, right there. I wonder if that would allow you to create "schools" of magic in a more generic fashion than the usual "Fire School" or whatever -- basically with shades of morality as their primary defining characteristic. Of course, that approaches the lawful -- chaotic D&D paradigm, but it still might be an intriguing approach as a theme to a campaign (as opposed to an actual rule in the rule book).

[zot]

Originally Posted by JLV

That's an interesting concept, right there. I wonder if that would allow you to create "schools" of magic in a more generic fashion than the usual "Fire School" or whatever -- basically with shades of morality as their primary defining characteristic. Of course, that approaches the lawful -- chaotic D&D paradigm, but it still might be an intriguing approach as a theme to a campaign (as opposed to an actual rule in the rule book).

D&D got it from Moorcock, who painted quite a different picture of law, chaos, and the planes than most D&D players and DMs are familiar with. Moorcock's writing will change one's perception of alignments and the planes. Excellent, excellent books -- personally I recommend the Chronicles of Corum and the Elric books. And the Elric books may change one's perception of magic...

[JLV]

Originally Posted by zot

D&D got it from Moorcock, who painted quite a different picture of law, chaos, and the planes than most D&D players and DMs are familiar with. Moorcock's writing will change one's perception of alignments and the planes. Excellent, excellent books -- personally I recommend the Chronicles of Corum and the Elric books. And the Elric books may change one's perception of magic...

Yeah, I haven't read too much of Moorcock's stuff -- I was too busy most of the time, or someplace where it was "difficult" to find (they don't sell stuff like that in the Honduran jungle or the Middle East (except maybe in Israel)...at least not anywhere that foreigners can find it...). Guess I need to look him up, now that I have more leisure time.

[Jim Kane]

In re-examining the rules for: Summon Wolf, Summon Myrmidon, Summon Bear, Summon Gargoyle, and Summon Giant; in each case, the rules simply state: "Brings a _____."

Brings from where, the rules do not say.

However, on Page 6 of TFT:AW, under Creation Spells, we read the following:

"These are spells used to bring something into being - either to bring help from elsewhere (Summoning Spells) *OR* to create fire, shadows, walls, or to create an image of illusion of any of these things."

The first sentence would seem to inform that the thing is brought into being (aka: Manifested) from non-existence and "into being"; from whence it was originally not.

However, next we have the employment of the conjunction: OR, which acts as a "Logical Disjunction", and would logically indicate that these summoned things are separate from magical creation spells which manifest their effect from out of thin air - which would seem to indicate that the thing summoned is real, already existing on the temporal plane, and instantly called forth to the location of the wizard.

So, it is *very* hard to say just what the designer intended; or, if he was being purposefully abstruse, as a tactic to avoid possible issues with those who might take offense at a fantasy game which simulates animal combat, etc, etc.

One thing to consider: *If* these summoned things are not real things - preexisting, and called to the location of the wizard - how would they be any different than an Illusion which could not be disbelieved?

And, as they cannot be disbelieved, does that mean they therefore must then be *real*?

I don't believe so.

If I was pressed for an answer to explain this quandary, I would most likely base my answer on the ancient Hermeticism, which says: "As Above, So Below."

To mean that: Summoned Creatures are the Temporal manifestation of their Astrally existing counterpart; and brought to the wizard from the Astral Realm, to do his bidding. Therefore, a Summoned Creature would only be *real* for the time it exists in play; not before, nor afterwards.

If that is correct, then classifying these Summoned Creatures as a: Creation Spell; would also be correct.

However, the best bet, would be to simply *ask* the designer.

JK