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Old 08-08-2022, 06:48 PM   #61
sir_pudding
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Default Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)

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Originally Posted by KarlKost View Post
The Ninja template is an assassin template; if you wish to add exotic or supernatural traits to it, that's what it is.
I think you are missing or understating the role of tools for the template. The differences between the assassin and the ninja are as much about Ninja Tools as they are about the other powers.
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Old 08-08-2022, 08:34 PM   #62
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Default Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)

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Originally Posted by KarlKost View Post
The Ninja template is an assassin template; if you wish to add exotic or supernatural traits to it, that's what it is. "Shadow powers" for instance may be a thing for some secret assassin organizations - not much from different from a Mages Guild teaching spells, or the Alchemists Guild teaching potions.
While the DF Ninja is a type of assassin, the DF Assassin is a completely different template. The Ninja is all about various esoteric abilities - they've got a fairly wide Weapon Master alongside Killing Strike (which boosts ST for one attack per weapon per encounter) to encourage using a variety of weapons (while an Assassin could easily favor a single make of weapon), Ninja Tools (a modified variant of Gizmo, without the cap of 3 instances) to encourage using various specialty items like climbing claws, grapnels, snorkels, etc, and access to (and required investment in) various esoteric skills, not to mention their ability to purchase things like One With Shadows (a Limited version of Obscure) or Shadow Walker (basically just Shadow Form).

Now, personally, I'm not a huge fan of some of the idiosyncrasies of the DF Ninja - in no small part because I'm not a fan of the esoteric skills (they just seem... off), although I also dislike the silliness of "Fast-Draw ninja-to, strike, drop it; Fast-Draw nunchaku, strike, drop it; Fast-Draw jutte, strike, drop it; etc." My own inclination would be to allow Weapon Master to be narrowed down even to a single weapon (while most ninja are trained with all manner of ninja weapons, having one who favors a particular type - like the Oniwabanshu from Rurouni Kenshin, each of whom often had a favored weapon (Aoshi's kodachi, Misao's kunai, Okina's tonfa, etc) - shouldn't be uncommon, with such characters likely having skill (and familiarity) with the other weapons, but on Weapon Master for their favorite, probably modify Killing Strike to simply be a once-per-encounter ability (representing a strike meant to be used for an assassination, without the "But I can just swap weapons!" workaround), and make the esoteric skills optional (and/or replace then with Advantages that do the same thing). But that's my own idea of what a Ninja template should look like; the DF authors had their own idea and went with it.
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Old 08-08-2022, 11:29 PM   #63
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Default Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)

In my game the Ninja typically just hit each thing once to get killing strike with his ninjato and poison it, vanishing between targets of course. Although I also had about double the ninja powers and power-ups available.
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Old 08-09-2022, 01:47 PM   #64
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Default Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
I think you are missing or understating the role of tools for the template. The differences between the assassin and the ninja are as much about Ninja Tools as they are about the other powers.
Ninja tools are assassin tools, just different due to the cultural origins. Poisoned darts, poisoned knives, garrotes (I believe that's the name in english, Im not sure, sorry if it isnt). A Shuriken serves basically the same purpose of a throw knife or dart

Take the game Assassins' Creed, the protagonist is a western assassin; he is the quintessential ninja through and through. There's no difference between that and a ninja, except being in either Europe or Japan.

Last edited by KarlKost; 08-09-2022 at 01:53 PM.
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Old 08-09-2022, 02:05 PM   #65
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Default Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
While the DF Ninja is a type of assassin, the DF Assassin is a completely different template. The Ninja is all about various esoteric abilities - they've got a fairly wide Weapon Master alongside Killing Strike (which boosts ST for one attack per weapon per encounter) to encourage using a variety of weapons (while an Assassin could easily favor a single make of weapon), Ninja Tools (a modified variant of Gizmo, without the cap of 3 instances) to encourage using various specialty items like climbing claws, grapnels, snorkels, etc, and access to (and required investment in) various esoteric skills, not to mention their ability to purchase things like One With Shadows (a Limited version of Obscure) or Shadow Walker (basically just Shadow Form).

Now, personally, I'm not a huge fan of some of the idiosyncrasies of the DF Ninja - in no small part because I'm not a fan of the esoteric skills (they just seem... off), although I also dislike the silliness of "Fast-Draw ninja-to, strike, drop it; Fast-Draw nunchaku, strike, drop it; Fast-Draw jutte, strike, drop it; etc." My own inclination would be to allow Weapon Master to be narrowed down even to a single weapon (while most ninja are trained with all manner of ninja weapons, having one who favors a particular type - like the Oniwabanshu from Rurouni Kenshin, each of whom often had a favored weapon (Aoshi's kodachi, Misao's kunai, Okina's tonfa, etc) - shouldn't be uncommon, with such characters likely having skill (and familiarity) with the other weapons, but on Weapon Master for their favorite, probably modify Killing Strike to simply be a once-per-encounter ability (representing a strike meant to be used for an assassination, without the "But I can just swap weapons!" workaround), and make the esoteric skills optional (and/or replace then with Advantages that do the same thing). But that's my own idea of what a Ninja template should look like; the DF authors had their own idea and went with it.
Those advantages are cinematographic; in a realistic game, no ninja would have those; in a cinematographic one, assassins could use them too.

Likewise the same applies to any other kind of exotic or supernatural traits. Unless the setting is such that Japan is a magic land, if those are learned traits, any assassin from Jamaica or Finland or Botswana could learn those. Sure, there may be differences from place to place, but those arent traits intrinsic to a very specific kind of assassins from Japan.

In fact, the entire mystic about ninjas and samurais is a lot more legend than truth. In fact, medieval european warriors were probably far superior in almost all aspects.

I particularly see no reason why not allowing an european, or african or middle eastern, "ninja-like" assassin kind of the one from Assassins' Creed game for example. In my opnion, an ottoman Janissary or euroepean Templar would be just as effective, if not more.
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Old 08-09-2022, 08:50 PM   #66
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Default Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)

Now I'm visualizing the five minute pause after an encounter while the ninja finds, gathers up, and stows away all the weapons he used and dropped. Or the scene in several Ranma fanfics where someone disrupts the Hidden Weapons experts chi and he finds himself buried under all the weapons he was carrying.
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Old 08-10-2022, 03:52 AM   #67
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Default Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)

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Ninja tools are assassin tools, just different due to the cultural origins.
The assassin doesn't have Ninja Tools or Killing Strike on the template.
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Old 08-10-2022, 04:11 AM   #68
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Default Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)

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Originally Posted by KarlKost View Post
Those advantages are cinematographic; in a realistic game
GURPS Dungeon Fantasy is not realistic.
Quote:
in a cinematographic one, assassins could use them too.)
The assumption is that you csn normally only get abilities of your profession. Ninja abilities specifically have prerequisites that the assassin doesn't have.

Quote:
Likewise the same applies to any other kind of exotic or supernatural traits.
If you aren't enforcing the occupations, sure.
Quote:
Unless the setting is such that Japan is a magic land, if those are learned traits, any assassin from Jamaica or Finland or Botswana could learn those. Sure, there may be differences from place to place, but those arent traits intrinsic to a very specific kind of assassins from Japan.
None of these places exist in any of my DF games. My ninja were from the mysterious ziggurats of shadow-shrouded Zhartoum, City of a Thousand Eyes.

Quote:
In fact, the entire mystic about ninjas and samurais is a lot more legend than truth. In fact, medieval european warriors were probably far superior in almost all aspects.
The DF ninja is based mostly on the 80s ninja craze, so it's not even legend. That said its unlikely that any warrior of any place or period is meaningfully far superior to any other, except in terms of technology, because people are trained and equipped for the battfield they must fight on, not some hypothetical "best in history" competition.

Quote:
I particularly see no reason why not allowing an european, or african or middle eastern, "ninja-like" assassin kind of the one from Assassins' Creed game for example. In my opnion, an ottoman Janissary or euroepean Templar would be just as effective, if not more.
If you do it with assassin template, it won't be less effective, these are both 250 point templates designed around stealth and single target attacks and the assassin is more focused (the ninja is stealth kills with gadgets and powers). If you do it with the ninja template, it will look and act like an 80s pop culture ninja.

Last edited by sir_pudding; 08-10-2022 at 04:33 AM.
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Old 08-10-2022, 11:54 AM   #69
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Default Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)

I think we are having a bit of miscommunication. I know that assassins and ninjas are different DF templates. That's not what Im refering to.

What I mean is that you dont need to take inspiration on assassins using kimonos and wodden sandals to make a similar character. For a DF game, any assassin that uses powers and gadgets is a "ninja"; you may even call them "Shadow Dancers" or whatever other name you'd like.

That was the OP's question, if it's possible to have a "ninja" that doesnt necessarily have to take influence from Eastern aesthetics. To which my answer is yes, absolutely.

I understand what you're saying, the DF "ninja" has powers and gadgets that the assassin dont have. Im not denying this, and that wasnt what I was refering. What I meant is that a ninja - in specific, a DF ninja - is simply an assassin that trade some skills for specific powers and gadgets. The several protagonists from the Assassins' Creed series could very well play the role of DF "ninjas" for example, without being eastern driven.

I dont know if I made myself clearer this time... Do you know understand what I mean? Or is it still dubious? Sometimes things seem to be clear in my mind, but I realize that this is only true for my own mind, because people always get confused, so perhaps Im not being able to explain it as clearly as I believe that it makes sense in my head, so that's why Im asking.
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