Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG

[LoneWolf23k]

So, something I've been wondering, to make it (slightly) easier on myself in case I wanted to start a DFRPG campaign, would be to take some old adventure modules (now available on drivethrurpg) and converted them to GURPS stats.

Has anyone worked on such conversions, and if so, any advice?

[mlangsdorf]

The general experience is that converting is a pain. It saves you some time, but not all that much.

On the positive side:
1. Maps are already drawn.
2. Combat encounters already exist.
3. You probably have fond memories of the product, or alternately, have always wanted to run the product and now you get the chance to run it in DFRG.

On the negative side:
1. The maps generally don't have very many non-combat challenges, so you have to go and add opportunities for people to climb, jump across ledges, duck under stuff, and otherwise make Thieves and Martial Artists more useful.
2. Combat balance between some other game and GURPS is going to be very different. A lone golem can be anything from a push-over to a deadly fight in the source material, and in GURPS it can be anything from a push-over to a deadly fight. You're going to have to decide the challenge for each encounter that you adapt, and sometimes its going to be very hard to hit the right level.

Case in point: I adapted Keep on the Borderlands a few years ago. There's an encounter with a lone ogre that is fairly terrifying for 5-6 1st or 2nd level Basic D&D characters. In GURPS, the Scout shot it in the eye without even pausing. Similarly, the dinosaurs from Isle of Dread are moderately nasty if they start close to you in D&D, but are arrow bait in GURPS at just about any range.

3. Related to the above, a lot of published adventures suffer from the "horde of humanoids" problem. The opposition is mostly human-type enemies who fight in melee and maybe have some archers and possibly a spellcaster. This can work fine in some other games, but in DFRPG, you want a lot more variety in monsters or only the Scout and Swashbuckler will really shine.

Taking all that into account, my advice is to use published adventures as a source of inspiration. Redraw the maps to suit your purposes. Don't bother doing a mechanical conversion, but come up with your own monsters that feel right to you. If your orcs are more dangerous than your gnolls, don't worry about it and just make sure you and your players are having fun.

[restlessgriffin]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

The general experience is that converting is a pain. It saves you some time, but not all that much.

On the positive side:
1. Maps are already drawn.
2. Combat encounters already exist.
3. You probably have fond memories of the product, or alternately, have always wanted to run the product and now you get the chance to run it in DFRG.

On the negative side:
1. The maps generally don't have very many non-combat challenges, so you have to go and add opportunities for people to climb, jump across ledges, duck under stuff, and otherwise make Thieves and Martial Artists more useful.

I don't have a ton of experience with D&D 5e adventures, but recently I've been looking at the 3 D&D starter adventures from the 2 starter sets and the Essentials kit:

• Lost Mines of Phandelver
• Dragon of Icespire Peak
• Dragons of Stormwreck Isle

All of these have plenty of non-combat activities. For instance, Lost Mines of Phandelver has PC challenges:

• Dexterity (Stealth) check
• Wisdom (Perception) check (several of these) trap detection, searching ...
• Wisdom (Animal Handling) check
• Strength (Athletics) check -- for Climbing, moving through spiderwebs, ...
• Dexterity check (lots of these, dealing with traps, saving throws, etc)

2. Combat balance between some other game and GURPS is going to be very different. A lone golem can be anything from a push-over to a deadly fight in the source material, and in GURPS it can be anything from a push-over to a deadly fight. You're going to have to decide the challenge for each encounter that you adapt, and sometimes its going to be very hard to hit the right level.

Yeah, the scaling of fights can be a challenge I think. The whole Armor Class D&D vs GURPS armor DR and active defenses. Then there is the lower amount of Area of Effect capabilities in GURPS vs D&D 5e.

There is also the whole long and short rest, where D&D 5e has very easily recovered damage, where in GURPS you'd better have healers and potions aplenty. GURPS has no long rest, but if you get first-aid, a good meal, and rest overnight. You might gain back 1-3 points. But for D&D 5e a long rest will PC will regain all their lost Hit Points and some of their Hit Dice (not really sure what that entails, still learning D&D 5e).

Case in point: I adapted Keep on the Borderlands a few years ago. There's an encounter with a lone ogre that is fairly terrifying for 5-6 1st or 2nd level Basic D&D characters. In GURPS, the Scout shot it in the eye without even pausing. Similarly, the dinosaurs from Isle of Dread are moderately nasty if they start close to you in D&D, but are arrow bait in GURPS at just about any range.

I'd think if they start close in GURPS it would be really hard to get off a shot and if you miss you'd be dino food. At least if we're talking T-rex or Raptor or other big carnivor. Also if there's more than one, big problem.

3. Related to the above, a lot of published adventures suffer from the "horde of humanoids" problem. The opposition is mostly human-type enemies who fight in melee and maybe have some archers and possibly a spellcaster. This can work fine in some other games, but in DFRPG, you want a lot more variety in monsters or only the Scout and Swashbuckler will really shine.

GURPS DFRPG "fighters" don't have much in the way of Area of Effect attacks. No whirlwind attacks, no Cleave (I think that's available in DF but not DFRPG). The magic casters AoE choices are far more limited and often not as powerful as D&D5e.

Taking all that into account, my advice is to use published adventures as a source of inspiration. Redraw the maps to suit your purposes. Don't bother doing a mechanical conversion, but come up with your own monsters that feel right to you. If your orcs are more dangerous than your gnolls, don't worry about it and just make sure you and your players are having fun.

I'm going all in on it. However, I will be doing things GURPS style. No mechanical conversions. I'm sticking with using stuff mostly GURPS. No D&D 5e magic missiles. That spell has no equivalent so wizard NPCs will just have to take an appropriate ranged attack spell. The hordes of enemies will be reduced in number in some cases and I'll pay attention to their weaknesses. They will be played so they care about their own survival. If the front line is getting massacred by the PCs, maybe those far away without ranged weapons may just run away. If the NPC enemies are prone to be depicted as Cowardly, then they can get a roll vs Cowardice or they run away. Intimidation and Fear used by PCs will also cause the NPCs to flee or at least not close in to attack immediately.

[mlangsdorf]

Originally Posted by restlessgriffin

I'd think if they start close in GURPS it would be really hard to get off a shot and if you miss you'd be dino food. At least if we're talking T-rex or Raptor or other big carnivor. Also if there's more than one, big problem.

I don't know how much DFRPG you have actually played, but I actually ran a group of four through parts of the Isle of Dread. And my experience was that tbrigg's Scout could reliably eye-shot a dinosaur every other second (or faster) at close range, or put bodkins into the vitals at the same rate at longer ranges. Normal dinosaurs that started more than 2 seconds of movement away died before they made contact. 3 velociraptors, starting 20 yards away, was 1 velociraptor when it made it to the half-ogre knight and he could handle it in a 1 on 1 fight.

Combat scales differently between GURPS and D&D. Hordes of weak things are stronger in GURPS than they are in D&D, and a single foe with a lot of strength and toughness is generally weaker - there are exceptions like Electric Floating Jellies, Sword-Armor Golems, or Watchers at the End of Time. But those are powerful single combatants because they have a variety of good defenses on GURPS terms, not because they have a lot of HP.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

Hordes of weak things are stronger in GURPS than they are in D&D, and a single foe with a lot of strength and toughness is generally weaker - there are exceptions like Electric Floating Jellies, Sword-Armor Golems, or Watchers at the End of Time. But those are powerful single combatants because they have a variety of good defenses on GURPS terms, not because they have a lot of HP.

Concur with Mark here...the only way "one tough monster" was viable when I was writing the Bestiary versus 250-point or higher parties was to purposefull design them that way. Nictitating Membrane to prevent the "if it has eyes it dies" effect. Extra actions via fiat or rapid strike or high skill to offset the action economy, etc.

[restlessgriffin]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Concur with Mark here...the only way "one tough monster" was viable when I was writing the Bestiary versus 250-point or higher parties was to purposefull design them that way. Nictitating Membrane to prevent the "if it has eyes it dies" effect. Extra actions via fiat or rapid strike or high skill to offset the action economy, etc.

I don't understand the whole if it has eyes it dies. So for instance dragons do have nictating membrane. It doesn't make sense to me that it is as touch as the scaled skin armor on the body, but it does. I'd think dragons should have eyelids and should be able to "block" by blinking. Most have long flexible necks so they should be able to "dodge" just moving their head/necks. Anyone with a bow becomes the prime target along with magic users since they also have ranged attacks and powerful magic. Dragons also have magic so why haven't they developed special spells to protect their eyes/face/head? Why aren't they doing things to blind the opposition with the ranged attacks?

Dragons in GURPS tend to have weaker ranged attacks than in D&D 5e or depicted in a lot of fantasy. Range is more limited and cone attacks aren't as wide spread and powerful.

For giants why not use shields? Why not use your arm to shield your eyes? Basically reducing Scouts to attacks of opportunity.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Nictitating Membrane to prevent the "if it has eyes it dies" effect.

There are other options, such as No Brain + Homogenous.

I've used 'offset eyes' on monsters, causing eye shots to be treated as face shots for damage purposes (it's a highly limited No Eyes or No Brain; either way it's probably not more than [2] and might just be a perk). For creatures with tiny brains like dinosaurs it's not not particularly unrealistic.

[Evanm]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

I don't know how DFRPG you actually played, but I actually ran a group of four through parts of the Isle of Dread. And my experience was that tbrigg's Scout could reliably eye-shot a dinosaur every other second (or faster) at close range, or put bodkins into the vitals at the same rate at longer ranges. Normal dinosaurs that started more than 2 seconds of movement away died before they made contact. 3 velociraptors, starting 20 yards away, was 1 velociraptor when it made it to the half-ogre knight and he could handle it in a 1 on 1 fight.

Combat scales differently between GURPS and D&D. Hordes of weak things are stronger in GURPS than they are in D&D, and a single foe with a lot of strength and toughness is generally weaker - there are exceptions like Electric Floating Jellies, Sword-Armor Golems, or Watchers at the End of Time. But those are powerful single combatants because they have a variety of good defenses on GURPS terms, not because they have a lot of HP.

As someone from D&D interested in DFRPG, this is a bit of an eye-opener. How common is this in practice? It doesn't exactly sound that fun or realistic, even in "heroic reality".

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by Evanm

As someone from D&D interested in DFRPG, this is a bit of an eye-opener. How common is this in practice? It doesn't exactly sound that fun or realistic, even in "heroic reality".

Opposable thumbs (and therefore ranged combat) are very good at defeating big dumb animals that aren't already in your face, especially if you're playing the equivalent of (guesstimate) 8th level characters. This is actually true in D&D 5E as well: keep your buddies at a safe distance while the Sharpshooter uses Expeditious Retreat or Longstrider or Haste to kill it.

However, this scenario isn't common in DFRPG in practice, in my experience these past six months since switching from 5E. One reason for this is:

1.) Indoor combats.

The timescale is such that indoor dungeons work better, so I don't feel bad about using indoor maps that have dungeons the size of an apartment building (e.g. 50 yards x 80 yards). In 5E I feel really awkward doing so because it's hard to explain why the whole dungeon doesn't become a single encounter: by the time three rounds (eighteen seconds) of combat have elapsed, dungeon inhabitants can have had time to realize something is happening and move 60 to 90 yards towards the sounds of trouble.

Even though movement speeds are more variable and can be much higher in DFRPG (4 mph to 50 mph) than in 5E (4 mph to usually no more than 12 mph), combat is so much quicker in DFRPG (often one to three seconds) that it feels more like a house clearing operation, just a couple of brief screams and then silence. Therefore I don't feel like an idiot GM by leaving the monsters in their various rooms, lurking in ambush or whatever. Therefore I run more small indoor adventures (vs. outdoor adventures with indoor spaces embedded in the battle map), and so killing things from a distance is harder in DFRPG than in 5E.

Another reason is:

2.) Opportunity cost to ranged specialization.

Range penalties in DFRPG are also tougher, and the rules are less favorable to kiting. One of the DF professions, the Scout, is specialized to such a degree that he can pull off amazing ranged kills anyway, but it makes it less of a no-brainer to build a ranged combatant/melee switch hitter. Rather, you have to specialize, and if you do you give up some fun stuff that Knights or Swashbucklers have in melee combat, which will be common indoors.

But the most important factor is:

3.) Lots of tough monsters are immune.

Many, many DFRPG monsters aren't particularly vulnerable to eyeshots anyway. Off the top of my head, trolls, black puddings, peshkali, and fire elementals either don't have heads, or don't care if you headshot them. (They might care a little if you put out both eyes but still won't die yet.) If you choose to specialize in headshots and eyeshots, you'll be relatively useless against a significant fraction of monsters, and it only takes one monster and some bad luck to kill you. (HP attrition is less of a factor than in 5E.)

Conclusion: I think you'll be happy with the balance between melee/ranged/spells in DFRPG, and the fun of being attacked by various monsters. I have been.

[mlangsdorf]

Originally Posted by Evanm

As someone from D&D interested in DFRPG, this is a bit of an eye-opener. How common is this in practice? It doesn't exactly sound that fun or realistic, even in "heroic reality".

I've run and played DF and DFRPG for 15 years with dozens of different people. Scouts are ubiquitous to the point that I can't think of a group that didn't have a scout of some kind. And scouts kill things that are vulnerable to arrows at range.

In practice, it's not a problem if you do decent encounter design. Throw in a wide mix of foes - hordes of mundance orcs in one fight, a couple of Sword-Arm Golem in another, several siege beasts with shields after that, a floating electric jelly as a boss. The DF books provide a lot of monster types, so use them all. People have already discussed that at length.

And I'm not sure what is unrealistic about establishing that Fauxgolas, the elf archer, can shoot a bird's eye out at 100 yards, and then realizing that he can shoot out anything's eye out. He's significantly less effective against 10 orc footmen with shields, because he can't do anything about their shield blocks.