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Old 09-15-2017, 05:35 AM   #1
FrothFrenzy
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Default Combat Utility of Create Fire?

Hey people,

I'm making a fire-based mage, based on everything that is available in the 4th edition Basic Set and Magic. I've been going through the spells and I'm a bit perplexed as to how some fire spells would behave in combat... more specifically, I'm interested in the utility of one of the most basic spells - Create Fire.

Here's a hypothetical situation - our fighter character is holding off a human enemy, say the enemy is fully clad in light scale (DR 3 to all) but his feet are protected with leather boots (DR 2). They are dodging and missing each other constantly, this could take all day. I find a safe spot nearby, but in sight of the both of them, because I am aware that discretion is a better part of valor. I decide to cast Create Fire.

And now come a bunch of things I don't quite understand...

1) So it says in the Magic book that I cast it on an area. It says I cannot cast it within things, so I assume there's nothing preventing me to cast it below things? Can I cast it in a single-yard area occupied by the enemy? I assume this would cost 2 energy (its base cost)?

2) If this is possible, are there any extra modifiers that affect the success of the spell, save for the distance between me and the spell 'edge'?

3) What are the options of the enemy once and if fire starts burning from below him? Can he dodge at that moment, or move to a nearby space? Can he snuff it out?

4) Does this spell deal actual damage? I've read that unattended fires deal something like 1d-1 burning damage if you spend a full second in them, and 1d-3 if you just pass over them.

5) If it does deal damage, does DR protect you? I would assume it does, but which part? Is the 'target' randomly chosen, is it the torso, or are your 'lower' parts more vulnerable? Feet, legs, groin?

6) Can you use Fast Fire to enhance this fire and make it deal double, triple, etc. damage, or any damage at all if the fire created can't deal damage in the first place? If you can, what is the effect on the duration of the Create Fire spell?

7) Can you use Shape Fire to move a fire below someone?

8) Can you ready an action to move a fire in a way so it's constantly below someone, and if the fire actually deals any damage, it always deals 1d-1 regardless of your enemy moving around? Not 1d-3 as if he just passed over it.

9) Can you make a Mortal Kombat-esque fatality by using Create Fire below someone, then cast Stun, and then brutally fanning the fire with Fast Fire? Assuming, of course, that you succeed on all spells? This was really the whole point of creating this character!

Fast forward, the scale mail guy is killed but somehow he transformed into both a hostile spider swarm and a bat swarm! Oh, no!

10) Are swarms affected fully by fire created by Create Fire? It is an area spell! What about flying swarms, e.g. a bat swarm? It says that area spells extend up to four yards (EDIT: four feet -> four yards) in the air. Can I chase a bat swarm around with Shape Fire in the same way I could chase a ground enemy? (assuming that you can do #8)

Thanks!

Last edited by FrothFrenzy; 09-15-2017 at 06:21 AM.
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Old 09-15-2017, 06:02 AM   #2
ericthered
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Default Re: Combat Utility of Create Fire?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrothFrenzy View Post

1) So it says in the Magic book that I cast it on an area. It says I cannot cast it within things, so I assume there's nothing preventing me to cast it below something? Can I cast it in a single-yard area occupied by the enemy? I assume this would cost 2 energy (its base cost)?
The minimum is two yards diameter (radius of 1), but yes, that's how you use the spell in combat

Quote:
2) If this is possible, are there any extra modifiers that affect the success of the spell, save for the distance between me and the spell 'edge'?
No, not really.

Quote:
3) What are the options of the enemy once and if fire starts burning from below him? Can he dodge at that moment, or move to a nearby space?
He can dodge immediately, but if he's dodging, he must make a dodge that takes him out of the range of the fire ball. This is trickier than it first seems. He won't have enough move to dodge backwards, dodging forwards either puts his back to his enemy or into close combat, and dodging to the side is likely to be awkward or impossible. Also, if he's already used his step in a previous dodge, he's out of luck: you have to move to dodge an area attack.

Quote:
4) Does this spell deal actual damage? I've read that unattended fires deal something like 1d-1 burning damage if you spend a full second in them, and 1d-3 if you just pass over them.
Page 433 in basic. Yep, that's the damage you do.

Quote:
5) If it does deal damage, does DR protect you? I would assume it does, but which part? Is the 'target' randomly chosen, is it the torso, or are your 'lower' parts more vulnerable? Feet, legs, groin?
The average of your torso armor and your lowest (which tends to be unarmored). this is on basic page 400, under "Large Area Damage"

Quote:
6) Can you use Fast Fire to enhance this fire and make it deal double, triple, etc. damage, or any damage at all if the fire created can't deal damage in the first place? If you can, what is the effect on the duration of the Create Fire spell?

7) Can you use Shape Fire to move a fire below someone?
If you've got the FP for it, sure!

Quote:
8) Can you ready an action to move a fire in a way so it's constantly below someone, and if the fire actually deals any damage, it always deals 1d-1 regardless of your enemy moving around? Not 1d-3 as if he just passed over it.
Not sure. this is probably a GM call.

Quote:
9) Can you make a Mortal Kombat-esque fatality by using Create Fire below someone, then cast Stun, and then brutally fanning the fire with Fast Fire? Assuming, of course, that you succeed on all spells? This was really the whole point of creating this character!
Yes, but remember this is one action each! and that might cost a bunch of FP.

Quote:
10) Are swarms affected fully by fire created by Create Fire? It is an area spell! What about flying swarms, e.g. a bat swarm? It says that area spells extend up to four feet in the air. Can I chase a bat swarm around with Shape Fire in the same way I could chase a ground enemy? (assuming that you can do #8)
I've never imagined create fire being limited to the ground. I believe area spells reach 4 yards high unless a different height is specified. So yes, it can hit a flying swarm. And yes, Large area attacks do full damage against a swarm and are pretty much the best way to deal with them.
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Old 09-15-2017, 06:27 AM   #3
FrothFrenzy
 
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Default Re: Combat Utility of Create Fire?

Thanks for the analytic response!

It seems I was editing the post while you were responding. I changed four feet into four yards for #10 (my bad, I'm also a D&D player so mistakes like this are common). Also, I added a question under #3 - can your enemy perform some kind of a maneuver to snuff out the fire?

Some spell cast chains are indeed a bit unfeasible, but I'll try to stretch the points to fit a Great Haste spell, also. That just might do it. Otherwise, he'll remain a glorified eyebrow burner he was destined to be.
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Old 09-15-2017, 06:55 AM   #4
malloyd
 
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Default Re: Combat Utility of Create Fire?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
The minimum is two yards diameter (radius of 1), but yes, that's how you use the spell in combat
Radius 1 spells only fill 1 hex, the 6 adjacent half filled hexes count as free of the effect.

Quote:
Also, if he's already used his step in a previous dodge, he's out of luck: you have to move to dodge an area attack.
He can also get an extra hex if he's willing to Dodge and Drop and end up prone. Note that even if he doesn't dodge, if he can step out of the area on his next turn, he takes the reduced damage for passing through the flame, since he doesn't spend a full turn in it.


Quote:
Not sure. this is probably a GM call.
That sounds perfectly legal is you can keep up (Shape Fire has a maximum Move of 5).


Quote:
I've never imagined create fire being limited to the ground. I believe area spells reach 4 yards high unless a different height is specified. So yes, it can hit a flying swarm. And yes, Large area attacks do full damage against a swarm and are pretty much the best way to deal with them.
Yeah, Create Fire requires no fuel, so it works just fine against swarms up to 4 yards high. Nothing prevents you from casting it at a point somewhere up in the air too, so you can take a 4 yard tall cylinder out of a swarm anywhere. I'd personally allow you to stack the effect at multiples of the cost (i.e. pay triple cost and you can have a 12 yard tall cylinder) but I don't think that's official. There are some well know logical oddities in spell volumes.
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Old 09-15-2017, 07:17 AM   #5
ericthered
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Default Re: Combat Utility of Create Fire?

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Originally Posted by malloyd View Post
Radius 1 spells only fill 1 hex, the 6 adjacent half filled hexes count as free of the effect.
That's what I get for discussing hexes. I use free form measurements for my own games. Do you have a reference for this?
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Old 09-15-2017, 07:33 AM   #6
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Default Re: Combat Utility of Create Fire?

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Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
That's what I get for discussing hexes. I use free form measurements for my own games. Do you have a reference for this?
It's always been that way. Original reference Fantasy (1e) p.8. The GURPS 4e rule is on Basic p.239 and Magic p.13.
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Old 09-15-2017, 08:31 AM   #7
Anaraxes
 
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Default Re: Combat Utility of Create Fire?

If it makes you feel better, don't think of an Area N spell as "radius N", but rather "radius 0.5 + N - 1". The text doesn't actually define area by distance from a center, though it uses the word "radius", but rather by the patterns on a hex map. The base cost case is a single hex.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Characters B239
The area of effect of a spell cast over a one-yard radius is a single hex. The area of effect of a spell cast over a two-yard radius is a central hex and all adjacent hexes... And so on, building up larger areas by adding successive rings of adjacent hexes.
Our group has been known on occasion yet to use the old TFT term "megahex" :)
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Old 09-15-2017, 09:54 AM   #8
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Default Re: Combat Utility of Create Fire?

I've had one of my players use Create Fire and Shape Fire to basically replicate Sphere of Flame from the old D&D druid spell list, and chased enemies around the battlefield with it.

If you have the FP and casting time to spare, Fast Fire makes your Create Fire do more damage, or you could make Essential Fire (also expensive) ... or even Essential Fire + Fast Fire. And then of course Shape Fire to chase your enemies around with it :)

But the basic Create Fire + Shape Fire combo is quite handy.
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Old 09-15-2017, 10:20 AM   #9
sir_pudding
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Default Re: Combat Utility of Create Fire?

Glue also synergizes nicely.
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Old 09-15-2017, 02:04 PM   #10
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Default Re: Combat Utility of Create Fire?

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Glue also synergizes nicely.
Grease as well. They're both frustrating battlefield control spells and when it's already challenging to move around nothing ups the pressure like setting someone on fire.
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