Krokodil

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by Kromm

This isn't specific to opiods. Very few "clean" drugs produced under controlled conditions will rot your flesh, dissolve your teeth, etc. Those effects result from impurities introduced in street production.

But, sometimes even pure drugs will have ugly side effects, largely due to the addict's overall neglect of their body. For example, some of the tooth damage from meth comes from the drug's tendency towards causing bruxism (teeth grinding), more acidic conditions within the mouth (possibly due to impurities) and the addict's tendency to ignore things like brushing their teeth while high.

Likewise, much of the scare about "crack babies" in the 1980s and 1990s actually turned out to just be the normal ill-effects of poor prenatal nutrition rather than anything specific to crack cocaine.

Originally Posted by Kromm

You don't get extra points for Addiction just because you use crappy versions of the drug.

OTOH, I think that past (3E) GURPS books have included enhancements for drugs which are effectively a death sentence or which had additional side effects, usually an additional -5 points.

It's not unreasonable since the standard Addiction disad assumes that the drug is Illegal, and Legal versions reduce the cost of the addiction by 5 points. Likewise, Alcoholism (which scientists just treat as another Addiction) gets a -5 modifier for being Insidious and having long-term damage to health. So, a drug with particularly nasty effects might merit an additional -5 point enhancement.

Originally Posted by Kromm

You can certainly get extra points for Impulsiveness, On the Edge, low Wealth, etc., however, if your personal situation is tough or you're undiscriminating.

How so? Are you talking about traits that are linked to an addiction? For example, do you get extra points for Impulsiveness if you've also got an Addiction?

For traits which are triggered by an addiction (e.g., Paranoia and Berserk which are only triggered when you use PCP), then there could be a version of the Link enhancement which applies to disadvantages. It makes sense for there to be an enhancement because not only do your linked disads trigger all at once, but they also kick in when you're physically or mentally impaired by the addiction.

Finally, it's arguable that addictions to some drugs are underpriced in GURPS. For example, if you're an alcoholic you spend much of your time Drunk (-2 to most attributes). If you were to take -2 to your attributes across the board, then that would be a -120 point reduction (-40 each for -2 DX and IQ, -20 each for -2 HT and ST). Assuming you only spend half your waking hours Drunk, have a few hours where you're only partially under the influence and that you have some ability to resist your addiction beyond just control rolls, let's call it a -24 point disad, not that far from the "illegal" version of Alcoholism.

But, real life alcoholics don't just stay drunk. They might hallucinate, black out (treat as a variant of hallucination), pass out, or even accidentally kill themselves (particularly likely when a severe alcoholic goes into rehab, loses their tolerance and then binges based on their previous level of tolerance - e.g., Amy Winehouse). So, that ought to be worth even more points. What's the price of a disadvantage where you spend half your time Hallucinating?

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by tantric

What level of chemistry knowledge is required to synth basic illegals? Is it a technique?

I'm pretty liberal about allowing specialized areas of a larger skill to be learned as techniques, since techniques represent aspects of a larger base skill which are learned without that much knowledge of the background material.

Things like Meth and Krokodil are usually cooked by addicts, many of whom are ignorant of any other aspect of chemistry. Hence the more spectacular stories of evil side effects, explosions, fires and so forth.

So, if someone wanted to learn the Meth Cook technique I'd allow it as an Average technique which defaulted to Chemistry-2 or Pharmacy (Synthetic)-0, or maybe Streetwise-6.

Success results in drug that is as "good as store bought." Ordinary failure results in anything from poor yields to wasted ingredients, to impure but useable-if-you're-not-picky drugs.

More fundamental techniques count as Hard techniques or require actual base skill. For example, LSD synthesis might be a Hard technique or require actual Chemistry or Pharmacy skill.

Originally Posted by tantric

My gut feeling is that the culture hasn't caught up and that you'll be having pharmaceutically pure desomorphine on the streets within a few years.

That implies actual drug labs with attendant increase in cost. My understanding is that Krokodil appeals to folks who don't have a whole lot of cash. Eventually the situation will be somewhat like the situation with meth in the U.S. - initially mostly addicts making their own, then larger drug cartels shipping in slightly more expensive but slightly purer product.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by Asta Kask

I wouldn't put too much stock in what a 'normal' dose is - you develop tolerance to opiates very quickly.

Additionally, some people are more or less sensitive to opiates.

There's pretty good evidence that propensity towards certain addictions is at least partially hereditary. There certainly appears to be a hereditary component to alcoholism.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

There's pretty good evidence that propensity towards certain addictions is at least partially hereditary. There certainly appears to be a hereditary component to alcoholism.

Heroin is supposed to be well nigh universally addictive, isn't it?

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Heroin is supposed to be well nigh universally addictive, isn't it?

No more so than morphine, and they give that to a LOT of people post-operatively without creating a raft of drug addicts. Physical tolerance is not the same as physical addiction, although it's an important component of physical addiction and is a real complicating problem with psychological addiction.

My ex boyfriend is allergic to such a broad range of opiods that he was given diamorphine (medical heroin) for pain management after his last operation, and probably will for the one he's got coming up.

[Anders]

Originally Posted by Bruno

No more so than morphine, and they give that to a LOT of people post-operatively without creating a raft of drug addicts. Physical tolerance is not the same as physical addiction, although it's an important component of physical addiction and is a real complicating problem with psychological addiction.

I'm not sure where you're getting this... heroine enters the brain much quicker than morphine, leading to higher local concentrations and a much more intense high. And morphine is pretty damn addictive - the reason they can give it to lots of people post-op is that they monitor the drug levels to avoid the most intense highs (and the most severe lows).

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Asta Kask

I'm not sure where you're getting this... heroine enters the brain much quicker than morphine, leading to higher local concentrations and a much more intense high.

When taken orally there is no high and it's absorbed rather slowly. When taken intravenously, the high is maximized. Smoking, snorting, and taking suppositories sit between the two extents. You can't deliver a blanket statement like that.

Originally Posted by Asta Kask

And morphine is pretty damn addictive - the reason they can give it to lots of people post-op is that they monitor the drug levels to avoid the most intense highs (and the most severe lows).

Heroin has similar addiction rates, and (when it's not full of street garbage) generally similar to less severe side effects when taken at similar thereputic dosages (although you just can't get away from opiate constipation for any of the high end ones).

My point is that much of the "ZOMG HEROINS" reaction is disproportionate - it can and is used therapeutically and safely, just like morphine, just like methadone, just like all the other synthetic and natural opiates. Heroin is not magically addictive, and just taking heroin doesn't magically make you an addict. Addiction doesn't work like that.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Addiction doesn't work like that.

I wish we had official worked example systems for how addiction works with various example drugs in GURPS terms.

[Anders]

Originally Posted by Bruno

When taken orally there is no high and it's absorbed rather slowly. When taken intravenously, the high is maximized. Smoking, snorting, and taking suppositories sit between the two extents. You can't deliver a blanket statement like that.

I automatically thought of injection. You are right when it comes to the oral preparations.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Bruno

My point is that much of the "ZOMG HEROINS" reaction is disproportionate - it can and is used therapeutically and safely, just like morphine, just like methadone, just like all the other synthetic and natural opiates. Heroin is not magically addictive, and just taking heroin doesn't magically make you an addict. Addiction doesn't work like that.

Are there recreational users of heroin that aren't addicts? There are drinkers that aren't alcoholics, marijuana partakers that aren't stoners, users of hallucinogens that do it rarely, even occasional users of cocaine, and so on. I've never met or heard of anybody who just shot heroin once every couple of months or whatever when they were in the mood and had access.