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Old 11-03-2011, 03:31 AM   #41
Ts_
 
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Default Re: Wizard Vows

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Originally Posted by Darieltis View Post
I would imagine it has to do with damage type...edged weapons can do cutting damage or impaling (some anyway), and both of those types get multipliers for penetrating damage...plus the ability to amputate limbs etc. Blunt weapons do crushing damage only iirc.
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Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
Vow: Do One-Third to One-Half Injury To All Targets [-10]
"no edged weapons" in my understanding would allow imp weapons like a spear, many fencing weapons and a bow. Is it a Vow against anything sharp or just against things with an edge? That's where my problem my stem from.

By the way, if it's -10 because edged weapons are so good, how about "no cr weapons", which would also seem like -10 on Kromm's list (not RAW, but a good starting point).

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Ts
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Old 11-03-2011, 03:45 AM   #42
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Default Re: Wizard Vows

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Originally Posted by Ts_ View Post
"no edged weapons" in my understanding would allow imp weapons like a spear, many fencing weapons and a bow. Is it a Vow against anything sharp or just against things with an edge? That's where my problem my stem from.
To my mind, "no edged weapons" also encompasses "no pointed weapons". In GURPS terms, that means weapons that only do crushing damage. As a GM, I would also read that to mean no weapons that could be used as impaling or cutting, so no using the butt ends of spears or flats of swords.

I'd also suggest that the value of the vow is not simply because crushing weapons are inherently worse than cutting or impaling ones (arguably, they're not), but because the character is sealing himself off from 2/3rds of the low-tech weapons in the world. If the character breaks into an armory and finds only swords, he's out of luck. If the monster can only be killed by piercing its eyes, then the character must rely on allies or run away. He's limiting his options pretty severely.
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Old 11-03-2011, 06:23 AM   #43
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Default Re: Wizard Vows

But what's such a wizard's rationale for a blunt weapons only vow?
I mean, I may think that many collections of beliefs seem pulled out of rears, but they must have reasons if only ones that make sense only to themselves.
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Old 11-03-2011, 06:56 AM   #44
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Default Re: Wizard Vows

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Originally Posted by Lord Carnifex View Post
I'd also suggest that the value of the vow is not simply because crushing weapons are inherently worse than cutting or impaling ones (arguably, they're not), but because the character is sealing himself off from 2/3rds of the low-tech weapons in the world. If the character breaks into an armory and finds only swords, he's out of luck.
Some characters don't have any sword skill, and would at most get a incompentency quirk for that. (Besides, the munchkin in me would argue that striking with the flat blade is allowed under such a Vow. Or just use an improvised club. Besides, you're a freaking wizard ...)

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Originally Posted by Lord Carnifex View Post
If the monster can only be killed by piercing its eyes, then the character must rely on allies or run away. He's limiting his options pretty severely.
That is exactly an argument that cut/imp/pi is better than cr and doesn't explain why "no blunt weapons" should also be -10.

Really, what are the game mechanical effects that make the restriction of a wizard to staff, club, shields, tonfa, net, bolas, maybe sling a -10 disadvantage? You could build a perfectly fine wizard around that and most people wouldn't even notice that he cannot use a sword or a pickaxe. That it isn't much of a restriction unless the PC has points in those weapon skills. Which the wizard presumably doesn't care about. He doesn't need to improvise with broken bottles (use pool cues) or pick up a weapon when he couldn't bring his own because he's got build in weapons.

And please, compare that to a wizard that has sworn "keep silence at all times", which is also a -10 vow (not even -15) in the Basic Set. Tell me why that character isn't entirely useless. (Yes, dance a.k.a. gesture-only magery would help. But it comes with a big build-it discount, so this would be double-dipping imho.)

I really don't get it. A fighter can be quite competent with a -10 vow that just screams "I'm bad for fighters". A wizard can be completely obliterated by another -10 vow but should still be allowed the same -10 vow designed against fighters? Huh? Something isn't priced right here. If you think that the weapon restrictions is a -10, please make the vow of silence a -20 at least or even the full -25 for mute.

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Old 11-03-2011, 09:40 AM   #45
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Default Re: Wizard Vows

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Originally Posted by Ts_ View Post

"no edged weapons" in my understanding would allow imp weapons like a spear, many fencing weapons and a bow. Is it a Vow against anything sharp or just against things with an edge?
"Anything that does cutting, impaling, or piercing damage" is what it means . . . it definitely outlaws arrows, rapiers, spears, and other stabbing weapons, as well as bullets.
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Old 11-03-2011, 10:27 AM   #46
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Default Re: Wizard Vows

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Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
But what's such a wizard's rationale for a blunt weapons only vow?
I mean, I may think that many collections of beliefs seem pulled out of rears, but they must have reasons if only ones that make sense only to themselves.
I thought about it and decided that the wizard's vow of only using things like staffs and knives could be a compromise of an original ethic that said "no weapons" period. So they only carry things that can be described as having other purposes but can be used as a weapon if needed. A knife for eating. A staff for helping you walk.
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Old 11-03-2011, 10:34 AM   #47
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Default Re: Wizard Vows

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Originally Posted by Ts_ View Post
And please, compare that to a wizard that has sworn "keep silence at all times", which is also a -10 vow (not even -15) in the Basic Set. Tell me why that character isn't entirely useless. (Yes, dance a.k.a. gesture-only magery would help. But it comes with a big build-it discount, so this would be double-dipping imho.)
Why? The character can't talk - the effect on spellcasting is only part of it (and even then high enough skill eliminates it). Would you tell a Dance Mage that they can't get -30 points back from Mute because they can still cast spells?

Never mind that a Dance Mage isn't just a gesture mage - they need to be standing with their legs free and on a good enough surface to dance on. It's like a sub-skill-12 mage without the time penalty and the added shouting.
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Old 11-03-2011, 10:52 AM   #48
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Default Re: Wizard Vows

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
I thought about it and decided that the wizard's vow of only using things like staffs and knives could be a compromise of an original ethic that said "no weapons" period. So they only carry things that can be described as having other purposes but can be used as a weapon if needed. A knife for eating. A staff for helping you walk.
In dragonlance the reason they could use a dagger was in honor of the wizard Magius who fought with Huma against the dragons.
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Old 11-03-2011, 02:53 PM   #49
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Why? The character can't talk - the effect on spellcasting is only part of it (and even then high enough skill eliminates it).
Okay, for spells at 15+ (I thought it needed 20+), mages aren't really affected in their casting by the Vow. But below that (really, any character that took this Vow before becoming a powerful wizard) it would disable almost all spells. I can't imagine any wizard apprentice with this Vow, while I can imagine an apprentice fighter with the "no edged weapons" Vow, even an effective one. That's why I keep saying that one is a lot harsher than the other. That's why I think that these two Vows are not priced correctly against each other.

But you can even disregard the relative pricing of these two Vows: That still doesn't explain why a Vow "always keep silent" is worth significantly less than the disadvantage not to speak. Where do their effects differ? And if there is something intrinsic in a Vow that makes it a softer disad, what does this mean for the "no edged weapons" Vow? Is it also the softer version of a -30 limitation not to use edged weapons?

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Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
Would you tell a Dance Mage that they can't get -30 points back from Mute because they can still cast spells?
Never mind that a Dance Mage isn't just a gesture mage - they need to be standing with their legs free and on a good enough surface to dance on. It's like a sub-skill-12 mage without the time penalty and the added shouting.
"Gesture" was the short version, as Dance is even less intuitive imho. Anyway, it's probably offtopic. The only reason I brought up Dance magic was to show that there are variant mages that can work around the problems of a Mute wizard. But that kind of Magery might or might not exist in the game, while fighters with crushing weapons are always in the game.

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Old 11-03-2011, 03:28 PM   #50
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Default Re: Wizard Vows

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Originally Posted by Ts_ View Post
Okay, for spells at 15+ (I thought it needed 20+), mages aren't really affected in their casting by the Vow. But below that (really, any character that took this Vow before becoming a powerful wizard) it would disable almost all spells. I can't imagine any wizard apprentice with this Vow, while I can imagine an apprentice fighter with the "no edged weapons" Vow, even an effective one. That's why I keep saying that one is a lot harsher than the other. That's why I think that these two Vows are not priced correctly against each other.
You arguably have a point that a Vow of silence is underpriced compared to, say, Mute. But you're really not making your point very well.

Avoiding disadvantages that cripple your character isn't double-dipping, it's the basic assumption. This is realistic; people who can't speak don't usually spend a lot of time practicing things that require speech to use (like spells), just like absolute Pacifists don't spend a lot of time training to fight.

Vow: Do not Speak isn't priced based on the assumption that it will be taken by someone with a bunch of spells at 14 (neither is Mute). The fact that a disadvantage cripples SOMEONE isn't really relevant; the price is based on how inconvenient it would be to someone who might actually have that disadvantage.
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