How Can I Make These Guys A Challenge?

tjbuege · 11-28-2009, 03:29 PM

My PCs will be 175-point characters in a DF campaign. I'd like to throw a group of Kobold's at them, but I'm having a hard time deciding how to make them a challenge, other than the obvious (large numbers of them).

So far, I'm thinking something along these lines for the Kobolds:

ST: 8 HP: 8 Speed: 6.00
DX: 13 Will: 9 Move: 6
IQ: 10 Per: 11
HT: 11 FP: 11 SM: -2 (2.5’ tall)
Dodge: 9 Parry: 10 DR: 2 (3)
Punch (14): 1d-2 cr
Bite (14): 1d-3 cut
Spear (14): 1d imp
Sling (15): 1d-1 pi (lead shot) (Acc 0, Range 54/90, RoF 1, Shots 1(2))
Advantages: Acute Hearing 1, Acute Vision 1, Blunt Claws, Damage Resistance 2 (Scales; Flexible), Higher Purpose (Kill Gnomes and Sprites), Infravision, Night Vision 5, Sharp Teeth, Tail.
Disadvantages: Bad Sight (Nearsighted; Only in sunlight), Calous (12), Cowardice (12), Disturbing Voice, Hate Human-oids, Sadism (12).
Skills: Spear-14, Brawling-14, Stealth-15, Sling-15, Traps/TL3-13.

I'd like the Kobolds to be able to attack from a distance, but I can't see those slings being anything near a challenge. They could aim for the head, but that's at -5 (-3 if they take 3 Aim turns). Example: If they are 12 yards away and aiming for the head, and take three aim turns, that's 15+2-5-5 = 7 skill. If they aim for the torso, their effective skill will be 13, but with a damage of 1d-1, that's hardly going to bother my PCs who will likely have DR anywhere from 2 to 5 or more.

Should I increase their skill with the sling? Should I give them a different weapon? Are there any tactics they could employ to their advantage? Does their diminutive size help at all?

Thanks,
Tim

riprock · 11-28-2009, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjbuege

Should I increase their skill with the sling? Should I give them a different weapon? Are there any tactics they could employ to their advantage? Does their diminutive size help at all?

Their sling bullets can be poisoned. Fermented dung is cheap and nasty.

Their diminutive size allows them to do popup attacks from tiny holes.

Envisage a cavern with four yards of distance from floor to ceiling. Three yards from the floor, there are many little holes. The walls are slimy. The PCs cannot climb up. Kobolds pop out of the holes, fire poisoned sling bullets, and pop back. The holes are too small to allow a human to enter conveniently. The kobolds might even get a height advantage if they have to fight with spears as the PCs try to rush them.

They're not invulnerable - a PC might be able to spot them as they pop up and snap a lethal shot at them. But getting into their holes and getting their treasure would be nasty.

Does that work for you, or is it too slimy and nasty?

Mark Caliber · 11-28-2009, 04:07 PM

Think like a Kobold.

In short (ugh the pun) Kobolds are diminutive and weak. They will NOT engage in an up front fight unless they DO outnumber their opponents.

In noticed that your kobolds have traps skills. So having them lay out concealed traps and murder holes will make them more difficult. Tactically, you'll see a handful of kobolds who will make a quick and hasty attack and then retreat loudly in a definite direction. (After a couple of seconds the Kobolds drop into cover and evade a nasty surprise, while their buddies on the OTHER side of the trap continue to make loud party noises.

In short, remember that these kobolds are going to employ hit and run tactics.

Another thought is to have the kobolds scatter after the first encounter. As the PC's begin to focus on specific targets, the rest of the Kobolds will then flank the PC's. If the PC's change direction and focus, that Kobold should flee while his buddies pick up and flank as well.

And most importantly, once the Kobolds loose about 25% of their numbers, the game's off and they will begin to rout.

So my opinion is to focus on the personality of the encounter and not so much the stats. And use ridiculous traps. (Some should also be obvious enough to easily avoid.) Swinging log falls, ankle grabbers, whatever is nasty enough for a Kobold to use.

Gold & Appel Inc · 11-28-2009, 04:17 PM

These guys have Traps-13, so it seems like traps are the sort of thing they do on a fairly regular basis. Ditto the Stealth-15, plus, and most interestingly: unlike most DF fodder of this size and skill, they're not stupid. Let them have some simple but fiendish tricks set up to give themselves the edge, and then shadow the party through their home turf until opportunity knocks. Something noisy and distracting, like a shower of junk or a greased staircase (noise provided by clattering armor). Total or partial surprise is key here: if they can achieve that, they can take some free All-Out shots at somewhat close range and dispense with all this aiming business even if they go for the face. If enough victims get knocked down, stunned, disarmed, etc by the traps and first volley then they rush in to finish the job with their spears ASAP in two waves: kobolds who were waiting with their spears at the ready, and then the slingers after they re-equip; if not they run like hell.

tjbuege · 11-28-2009, 04:28 PM

Ok, all interesting replies...if this encounter were in a location where the Kobolds could setup the traps and other surprises. However, I need to be more specific about the encounter I had in mind, and I apologize for not explaining this at first.

The PCs are exploring an abandoned dungeon/stronghold. So are the Kobolds. I don't know that they will have had a chance to lay out any traps. I'm thinking the PC party will be four characters, and the Kobolds will probably be about 9-12. Should they simply scatter and run away when the PCs encounter them, and not try to engage the PCs at all? That's ok with me. This dungeon is not the Kobolds' lair, so they may not know it very well.

Or is there a way the Kobolds could setup a quick impromptu trap? Maybe they shouldn't be out exploring in the first place? Maybe there should be more, like 24 or more?

<...pause while I think about this...>

Ok, the room where the encounter will be has two side rooms, where the Kobolds will be currently searching for treasures and such. The main room is where the PCs enter. The Kobold's would definitely be keeping watch on the main room. They could put some sort of decoy on the opposite side of the room, away from the side rooms where they are hiding. Something shiney to attract the PC's attention. As the PCs examine whatever it is, the Kobolds sneak up behind and attack with their slings...in numbers! They could even offset their shooting so one group could be reloading while another is attacking. This could ensure at least some of them are attacking every turn.

Hmmm... good ideas, keep 'em coming!

Gold & Appel Inc · 11-28-2009, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjbuege

The PCs are exploring an abandoned dungeon/stronghold. So are the Kobolds. I don't know that they will have had a chance to lay out any traps. I'm thinking the PC party will be four characters, and the Kobolds will probably be about 9-12. Should they simply scatter and run away when the PCs encounter them, and not try to engage the PCs at all? That's ok with me. This dungeon is not the Kobolds' lair, so they may not know it very well.

Or is there a way the Kobolds could setup a quick impromptu trap?

As skilled IQ ~10 residents of DF-world, the Kobolds know what to expect here. If they plan to have at least part of the group dsiarmed and in awkward positions to loot the place, disarm existing traps, etc, then they're going to want to use their abilities to their advantage and set up some tripwires, simple noise-makers, etc to slow and/or alert them to approaching hostiles (including dungeon monsters). They have a sensory advantage over Humans and many creatures, so try to work with that (eg: kill the lights at chokepoints / potential ambush spots as they pass through, so they don't have to do it after a fight starts).

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjbuege

Something shiney to attract the PC's attention. As the PCs examine whatever it is, the Kobolds sneak up behind and attack with their slings...in numbers!

An armored tank lying in a heap at the bottom of a greased staircase with a broken ankle is shiny and distracting. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjbuege

They could even offset their shooting so one group could be reloading while another is attacking. This could ensure at least some of them are attacking every turn.

They do better damage, can attack every round, and can parry with their spears, so they should abandon their slings as soon as anybody is on their feet, within ten yards, and otherwise in a position to rush them.

Landwalker · 11-28-2009, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjbuege

I'd like the Kobolds to be able to attack from a distance, but I can't see those slings being anything near a challenge. They could aim for the head, but that's at -5 (-3 if they take 3 Aim turns). Example: If they are 12 yards away and aiming for the head, and take three aim turns, that's 15+2-5-5 = 7 skill. If they aim for the torso, their effective skill will be 13, but with a damage of 1d-1, that's hardly going to bother my PCs who will likely have DR anywhere from 2 to 5 or more.

Should I increase their skill with the sling? Should I give them a different weapon? Are there any tactics they could employ to their advantage? Does their diminutive size help at all?

I don't think their size would help, but consider this:

—If they All-Out Attack (Determined), they get an extra +1, for a modified skill of 8 to hit the target's face.

—That means that 37.5% of the time, they will successfully strike the face (which rarely has DR) for 1d-1 pi (average 2.5). If they concentrate their fire and have at least four kobolds shooting at the same face at the same time, there's about an 85% chance that at least one of them will the face. And don't forget, a miss by one (so, a roll of 9) means they hit the torso instead. That might be irrelevant depending on damage rolls and DRs, but it's still there.

—If the PCs have poor DR on their legs, perhaps you want to aim at those instead. It's only a -2 modifier instead of -5, so you're looking at effective skill 11 (with an all-out attack). This has the potential to slow down the PCs with a couple of lucky shots. The same goes for arms, minus the potential to slow anything down.

—The PCs might not have weapons with C range. Kobolds probably do. Take advantage of it.

—Mob tactics! Rule that for every opponent grappling after the first, they get a +2 bonus on any rolls they make to takedown, pin, etc. Then have four kobolds jump on the party tank.

Hope that helps. Or at least, doesn't hinder.

Cheers.

chimchim · 11-28-2009, 05:52 PM

do you use extra effort in combat rules? if so remember they can trade one fp for +2 damage. That puts their slings at 1d+1 for the first volley at least.

mlangsdorf · 11-28-2009, 06:14 PM

I'd put a couple of kobolds in 3' tall tunnels, armed with a stack of the biggest crossbows they can cock. A ST11 crossbow does 1d+3 impaling or 1d+3 (2) piercing - assuming they get Crossbow-15, they can make all-out, aimed shots to the vitals on a 12+, doing an average of 10.5 after DR against DR6. Very scary! And PCs who want to chase after them in tunnels have to crawl, taking massive penalties to their defenses and attacks.

It's actually a pretty neat encounter - it gives the dwarves, gnomes, and halflings a chance to shine, and makes the barbarians understand why Gigantism is a disadvantage.

Kazander · 11-28-2009, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

I'd put a couple of kobolds in 3' tall tunnels....

This.

IMO, this is a game-changer. Suddenly your players are forced to fight at range 'C' for melee. They are forced to fight at large penalties (for reach C, and probably for posture as well) with their weapons of choice, or fight with smaller weapons which they probably have lower skill with and probably are not Weapon Master with--and still with a posture penalty. This will make a big difference. The Kobolds will have higher mobility as well, due to their Standing posture and the PC's Crawling posture. Use it.

I play with the optional rule where you use the difference in SM for penalties/bonuses in melee, giving the Kobolds +2 to hit the SM 0 players and the players -2 to hit the Kobolds. Kobolds, IMO, are probably used to going after tougher creatures in better armor--they may have Targeted Attack (Chinks in Armor, or neck, or face, or some other soft spot), which will help with their armor penetration abilities.

11-28-2009, 03:29 PM	#1
tjbuege Join Date: May 2008	How Can I Make These Guys A Challenge? My PCs will be 175-point characters in a DF campaign. I'd like to throw a group of Kobold's at them, but I'm having a hard time deciding how to make them a challenge, other than the obvious (large numbers of them). So far, I'm thinking something along these lines for the Kobolds: ST: 8 HP: 8 Speed: 6.00 DX: 13 Will: 9 Move: 6 IQ: 10 Per: 11 HT: 11 FP: 11 SM: -2 (2.5’ tall) Dodge: 9 Parry: 10 DR: 2 (3) Punch (14): 1d-2 cr Bite (14): 1d-3 cut Spear (14): 1d imp Sling (15): 1d-1 pi (lead shot) (Acc 0, Range 54/90, RoF 1, Shots 1(2)) Advantages: Acute Hearing 1, Acute Vision 1, Blunt Claws, Damage Resistance 2 (Scales; Flexible), Higher Purpose (Kill Gnomes and Sprites), Infravision, Night Vision 5, Sharp Teeth, Tail. Disadvantages: Bad Sight (Nearsighted; Only in sunlight), Calous (12), Cowardice (12), Disturbing Voice, Hate Human-oids, Sadism (12). Skills: Spear-14, Brawling-14, Stealth-15, Sling-15, Traps/TL3-13. I'd like the Kobolds to be able to attack from a distance, but I can't see those slings being anything near a challenge. They could aim for the head, but that's at -5 (-3 if they take 3 Aim turns). Example: If they are 12 yards away and aiming for the head, and take three aim turns, that's 15+2-5-5 = 7 skill. If they aim for the torso, their effective skill will be 13, but with a damage of 1d-1, that's hardly going to bother my PCs who will likely have DR anywhere from 2 to 5 or more. Should I increase their skill with the sling? Should I give them a different weapon? Are there any tactics they could employ to their advantage? Does their diminutive size help at all? Thanks, Tim

11-28-2009, 04:07 PM	#3
Mark Caliber Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Central Florida	Re: How Can I Make These Guys A Challenge? Think like a Kobold. In short (ugh the pun) Kobolds are diminutive and weak. They will NOT engage in an up front fight unless they DO outnumber their opponents. In noticed that your kobolds have traps skills. So having them lay out concealed traps and murder holes will make them more difficult. Tactically, you'll see a handful of kobolds who will make a quick and hasty attack and then retreat loudly in a definite direction. (After a couple of seconds the Kobolds drop into cover and evade a nasty surprise, while their buddies on the OTHER side of the trap continue to make loud party noises. In short, remember that these kobolds are going to employ hit and run tactics. Another thought is to have the kobolds scatter after the first encounter. As the PC's begin to focus on specific targets, the rest of the Kobolds will then flank the PC's. If the PC's change direction and focus, that Kobold should flee while his buddies pick up and flank as well. And most importantly, once the Kobolds loose about 25% of their numbers, the game's off and they will begin to rout. So my opinion is to focus on the personality of the encounter and not so much the stats. And use ridiculous traps. (Some should also be obvious enough to easily avoid.) Swinging log falls, ankle grabbers, whatever is nasty enough for a Kobold to use. __________________ (Censored)

11-28-2009, 04:17 PM	#4
Gold & Appel Inc Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: One Mile Up	Re: How Can I Make These Guys A Challenge? These guys have Traps-13, so it seems like traps are the sort of thing they do on a fairly regular basis. Ditto the Stealth-15, plus, and most interestingly: unlike most DF fodder of this size and skill, they're not stupid. Let them have some simple but fiendish tricks set up to give themselves the edge, and then shadow the party through their home turf until opportunity knocks. Something noisy and distracting, like a shower of junk or a greased staircase (noise provided by clattering armor). Total or partial surprise is key here: if they can achieve that, they can take some free All-Out shots at somewhat close range and dispense with all this aiming business even if they go for the face. If enough victims get knocked down, stunned, disarmed, etc by the traps and first volley then they rush in to finish the job with their spears ASAP in two waves: kobolds who were waiting with their spears at the ready, and then the slingers after they re-equip; if not they run like hell.

11-28-2009, 04:28 PM	#5
tjbuege Join Date: May 2008	Re: How Can I Make These Guys A Challenge? Ok, all interesting replies...if this encounter were in a location where the Kobolds could setup the traps and other surprises. However, I need to be more specific about the encounter I had in mind, and I apologize for not explaining this at first. The PCs are exploring an abandoned dungeon/stronghold. So are the Kobolds. I don't know that they will have had a chance to lay out any traps. I'm thinking the PC party will be four characters, and the Kobolds will probably be about 9-12. Should they simply scatter and run away when the PCs encounter them, and not try to engage the PCs at all? That's ok with me. This dungeon is not the Kobolds' lair, so they may not know it very well. Or is there a way the Kobolds could setup a quick impromptu trap? Maybe they shouldn't be out exploring in the first place? Maybe there should be more, like 24 or more? <...pause while I think about this...> Ok, the room where the encounter will be has two side rooms, where the Kobolds will be currently searching for treasures and such. The main room is where the PCs enter. The Kobold's would definitely be keeping watch on the main room. They could put some sort of decoy on the opposite side of the room, away from the side rooms where they are hiding. Something shiney to attract the PC's attention. As the PCs examine whatever it is, the Kobolds sneak up behind and attack with their slings...in numbers! They could even offset their shooting so one group could be reloading while another is attacking. This could ensure at least some of them are attacking every turn. Hmmm... good ideas, keep 'em coming! Last edited by tjbuege; 11-28-2009 at 04:31 PM.

11-28-2009, 05:52 PM	#8
chimchim Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: South yorkshire, united kingdom	Re: How Can I Make These Guys A Challenge? do you use extra effort in combat rules? if so remember they can trade one fp for +2 damage. That puts their slings at 1d+1 for the first volley at least. __________________ battlegrounds:rpg edition. A really useful VTT system. Down load the demo at battlegrounds home

11-28-2009, 06:14 PM	#9
mlangsdorf Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Austin, TX	Re: How Can I Make These Guys A Challenge? I'd put a couple of kobolds in 3' tall tunnels, armed with a stack of the biggest crossbows they can cock. A ST11 crossbow does 1d+3 impaling or 1d+3 (2) piercing - assuming they get Crossbow-15, they can make all-out, aimed shots to the vitals on a 12+, doing an average of 10.5 after DR against DR6. Very scary! And PCs who want to chase after them in tunnels have to crawl, taking massive penalties to their defenses and attacks. It's actually a pretty neat encounter - it gives the dwarves, gnomes, and halflings a chance to shine, and makes the barbarians understand why Gigantism is a disadvantage.