GURPS 4th edition shotgun

[Kunuhrai]

TL/DR; Are there any special rules that apply to shotguns and similar multiprojectile weapons other than the one in GURPS core 2. And have there been any discussions about them that i haven't been able to find on the forums? 4th edition by the way.


I like shotguns in most games, but in GURPS they seem quite bad. A quick bit of googling seems to support this (at least in terms of damage), but i don't want to spend a lot of timeresearching, balancing and debating back and forth if this has already been covered. I know of the rapid fire rule (bonus to skill with many shots) and the multiple projectiles rule (alter damage at close range), but with those two alone, shotguns feel underwhelming.
The quick googling i did suggests that the muzzle energy of the pellets are close to that of a .380 caliber pistol, so the damage should be around 2d rather than the current 1d+1.
If the rules regarding shotguns have already been debated or there are some rules i'm not aware of, i would love to hear it.

[Phantasm]

I only use the stuff in Basic Set: Campaigns for my games. I've messed with a few things from Ultra-Tech, but only regarding 18.5mm (12G) slugs with alternate warheads.

Of course, it took a few tries to fully grok the multi-shot (X×Y) rules.

[talonthehand]

A couple of points - the 1d-1 is for each pellet that hits, it's very possible for, say, 5 to hit for damage of 5d-5, which averages enough to drop a regular person to below 0 hit points.

That said, there's some additional stuff in GURPS High Tech - some more weapons (you might be interested in the Winchester Model 1887, which deals 2d-1 per pellet), as well as options for firing slugs instead of shot, which greatly increases the damage...though obviously without the rapid fire/multiple pellet benefits of shot.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Kunuhrai

The quick googling i did suggests that the muzzle energy of the pellets are close to that of a .380 caliber pistol, so the damage should be around 2d rather than the current 1d+1.
.

Gurps projectile damage is not based on whichever concept of "muzzle energy" you came across. It's based on penetration of thicknesses of Rolled Homogenous Alloy (armor grade steel) or other standards (NIJ tests).

There is a (rather complicated) mathematical formula but it was reverse engineered to match the above. 1D+1 is what 00 buck penetrates in the Real World so that's what it does in Gurps.

[DeathDaisy]

I also thought this until I recently started to grasp the horror that is a recoil score of 1. If you're skilled with a shotgun, or even unskilled, with the RoF bonus you can easily hit 5-6 pellets, which is more often than not a fight-ender. That is unless the target has DR, in which case shotgun pellets lose much of their deadliness, but that's working as intended, I think.

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by DeathDaisy

I also thought this until I recently started to grasp the horror that is a recoil score of 1. If you're skilled with a shotgun, or even unskilled, with the RoF bonus you can easily hit 5-6 pellets, which is more often than not a fight-ender. That is unless the target has DR, in which case shotgun pellets lose much of their deadliness, but that's working as intended, I think.

Shotguns, with their RoF to-hit bonus, are pretty good at hitting targets that you don't have much time to aim at. Say, small game and birds on the wing. Exactly the things people regularly shoot at with shotguns. They are often the least regulated firearms for civilian ownership, and can load all kinds of funny ammunition. However, there are many reasons why the modern military is more likely to fire it at a lock than an enemy.

[sir_pudding]

Gun Fu has some options that make them more like movie/video game shotguns if that is what you are after.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

There is a (rather complicated) mathematical formula but it was reverse engineered to match the above. 1D+1 is what 00 buck penetrates in the Real World so that's what it does in Gurps.

Based on my (reverse engineered) formula, 00 buck at 6.6 points of damage, which is closest to 1d+3, or 2d-1 pi.

There's a (red) chart in this post that consolidated the many shotshell types into a few mechanically distinct rows, should it prove useful.

[Kunuhrai]

ok firstly sorry for the late reply. Work was murder today.

@all; I should properly clarify that it isn't just the damage i don't like. It is also the way the accuracy is handled. It rubs me wrong that the skill of the shooter influences how many pellets hit, when IMO in RL as long as you point it in the right direction at close range, shooter skill has little to do with that.

@talonhand; Firstly, shotgun pellets do 1d+1 not 1d-1, but i still get what you say. I still disagree with it, though. I get to maybe 3 pellets on an average roll. I based it on an average american who own a shotgun for home defence. That is stats maybe 11 DX and maybe 1 pts in guns(shotgun). That gives a base skill of 10. With a single shot you get 9 pellets, so +2 from rapid fire, which is countered at 5 yards (according to the table i have, which might have been houserule changed). You can't really brace a gun in such a situation, and even giving the acc for aiming might be a strech. So at most you are talking a skill of 13 at 5 to 7 yards (a not uncommon range in such situations). With an average roll of 10 or 11 you are hitting with at most 3 pellets. That is 3d+3 dmg. Yes that would down an opponent with an average roll, but if he is wearing a leather jacket he would get a DR of 1, and then you have 3d dmg. Thats 10.5 dmg on average, which wouldn't even bring a thug with 11 ST to 0hp. So underwhelming at best. (and yes, you can be lucky to clip him in his head which would kill him, but i'm thinking about averages here). I'm not saying it is not possible to hit with 5 or more pellets, i'm saying that on home defence they are leathal IRL, but not so in game... And even so, it isn't really relevant for my question, as i'm looking for existing rules or speculations before making my own observations.

@Fred Brackin. Thank you. I had not considered penetration as a factor. I merely applied my own logic (8-ish mm pellet should do damage near to that of a 9mm bullet) to what i found with a quick google, which supported that. I will look into it. You wouldn't happen to have any references, ideally where to find that formula? It would save me some time.

@RyanW; Agreed. I still think they feel underwhelming with the current damage and accuracy models.

@sir_pudding; Might be a possibility. We are playing a SLA based campaign right now, so i might be able to convince my GM, but that wasn't the main idea.

@DouglasCole; Excelent. I will definately read through that blog when i get the time.

And lastly for all; I'm sorry this reply is a bit messy. I'm used to the reddit comment sections, so ordinary forums are odd to me

[GWJ]

Why you're consider 10.5 dmg as small? You should remember there is HT roll because of major wound, and even 7 dmg should be enough for this thug. Knockdown and stunning sounds just right for me, in this situation.