Fantasy Economy

[Lameth]

I need a little help figuring out my basic costs on my world. For a while i have been using my own and it did not work out, so I went to Fantasy/Dungeon Fantasy pricing. As i am looking at it, it does not seem to balance. First, as an example, a Farmer makes 300 per month in "Copper" let’s say, a 1 man tent is 50 copper in the book. But a quiver that produces arrows is 100 copper, and a knife if 50, that makes no sense. I don’t know if i am reading this right or not, but the costs of things [great and small] do seem to reflect the Fantasy world [ex. Lord of the Rings or Game of Thrones]. I sort of imagined a few "copper" pieces would get you a basic meal and a room for a night maybe. And a silver could give that to you for a few days or more. A gold would get you killed and is only seen by nobles/the wealthy or the very rare other.

Do others use the basic Fantasy costs system, or is there a better one that represents this fantasy a little bit more "realistic"? I would like something in between true dark ages and high fantasy. I don’t want copper and bartering being the only money, but I don’t mind a knight being given a nice gold goblet by a noble for his service, but i don’t want a hoard to be tons of gold either. Any ideas?

[Mark Caliber]

Historically Silver was VERY prevalent.

My ancestors (The Vikings) used silver coinage extensively and they dominated the early "Middle Ages" era.

Silver has also been a very common material for coinage for . . . well for-ever.

For instance the Spanish Conquistadors were still shipping TONS of sliver from South America, and while there was a lust for Gold it was Silver that was mined in industrial quantities.

So, don't shy away from using Silver as a common coinage.

And if you want another coin for millage use there were "Iron Bits." (1/10th of a copper).

And yes, the USA used to mint "mills!" Heck our Gasoline is STILL priced to the mil. (And property taxes are also calculated at the millage rate).

So whether for realistic or fantastic purposes, you could also throw in Iron Bits.

[Lameth]

Thank you. the main concern is also the pricing in Gurps dont seem to fit the fantasy realms thy are printed in, IMHO.

[Anders]

Dungeon Fantasy is not the place to go for realistic prices. You'll have to do your own research for that - TL 3 encompasses too many years for a generic list. I use brass:silver:gold at relative cost 1:20:400, 1 copper farthing equaling $1 and 50 coins to the pound. And then I wing it like crazy if necessary.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Lameth

Thank you. the main concern is also the pricing in Gurps dont seem to fit the fantasy realms thy are printed in, IMHO.

Which pricing systems?

Dungeon Fantasy prices aren't really intended for a 'world' at all. Dungeon Fantasy explicitly doesn't care about a consistent world.

GURPS Magic rules for magic item prices (which some of the DF prices are) are based on the labor cost of producing them, which is a pretty good basis. The $ rates are based on some assumptions about the economic practice of enchanting that you could adjust depending on your own setting if so inclined.

Prices of Low Tech gear...are surely not rock-solid because it's really hard to get historical pricing data and prices are likely to not be consistent everywhere anyway. But I think effort was put in to generating non-ridiculous numbers there.

Prices of gear specifically for DF were probably made from largely DF-internal considerations. Nobody in that space cares about how many months it takes a farmer to afford a ninja suit.

[Varyon]

This is a bit long-ish, but for my DF setting (currently only used for a currently-on-hold solo testing game) I came up with a system for coinage. First off, I set copper as $120/lb, silver as $1200/lb, gold as $36,000/lb, and platinum as $72,000/lb. Copper is used as-is, silver is used both pure and alloyed with gold as igneum (70% silver, 30% gold), electrum (50/50), and crown gold (10% silver, 90% gold), gold is only used as an alloy (pure gold is too soft for coinage), and platinum is used pure. Each metal comes in 3 sizes - a penny (the size of a US penny), a bit (the size of a US quarter), and a groat (the size of a double-thickness US half-dollar). Available coins are the Farthing* ($1; copper penny), Half Denari ($2.5; copper bit), Denari ($5, copper groat), Lad ($15, silver penny), Squire ($30, silver bit), Knight ($60, silver groat), Lady ($120, igneum penny), Prince ($300, igneum bit or electrum penny), Queen ($600, igneum groat, electrum bit, or crown penny), King ($1200, electrum groat or crown bit), and Emperor ($3000, crown groat). Platinum doesn't officially fall in the same classifications, but a penny is worth a King and a bit is worth an Emperor - when dealing in them merchants simply refer to them as platinum pennies, bits, and groats.

*A Farthing is literally a "fourthing" - that is, 1/4th of a Denari (day's wages). In my setting, Farthings started out as this, but it eventually became such standard practice to give a laborer an extra Farthing for a day's work that a standard day's wages eventually became 5F, at which point 1D was reset to this. The real reason I did it is because it makes the math a lot easier.

A more realistic treatment would likely have most silver be alloyed with something else (probably copper) and different country's coins would be worth different amounts depending on a) how pure they were (and what lesser metals they were alloyed with) and b) how reliable they were (if a country's silver pennies tend to vary between, say, 60% and 80% silver without any indication, they probably won't be worth as much as a country's with silver pennies that have stayed at 70% silver for the last 20 years). Platinum probably has no place in a realistic fantasy economy.

[Mark Caliber]

And then there's the problem that prices aren't going to be consistent historically.

The price of a bag of grain on a farm will be VERY low, but in the center of a city with a population of 2 million . . . during a famine, that same bag might be worth its weight in gold!

Oooo, did I just throw a wrench in your project? Gargh! Economics strikes again!

[Lameth]

Originally Posted by Varyon

This is a bit long-ish, but for my DF setting (currently only used for a currently-on-hold solo testing game) I came up with a system for coinage. First off, I set copper as $120/lb, silver as $1200/lb, gold as $36,000/lb, and platinum as $72,000/lb. Copper is used as-is, silver is used both pure and alloyed with gold as igneum (70% silver, 30% gold), electrum (50/50), and crown gold (10% silver, 90% gold), gold is only used as an alloy (pure gold is too soft for coinage), and platinum is used pure. Each metal comes in 3 sizes - a penny (the size of a US penny), a bit (the size of a US quarter), and a groat (the size of a double-thickness US half-dollar). Available coins are the Farthing* ($1; copper penny), Half Denari ($2.5; copper bit), Denari ($5, copper groat), Lad ($15, silver penny), Squire ($30, silver bit), Knight ($60, silver groat), Lady ($120, igneum penny), Prince ($300, igneum bit or electrum penny), Queen ($600, igneum groat, electrum bit, or crown penny), King ($1200, electrum groat or crown bit), and Emperor ($3000, crown groat). Platinum doesn't officially fall in the same classifications, but a penny is worth a King and a bit is worth an Emperor - when dealing in them merchants simply refer to them as platinum pennies, bits, and groats.

A more realistic treatment would likely have most silver be alloyed with something else (probably copper) and different country's coins would be worth different amounts depending on a) how pure they were (and what lesser metals they were alloyed with) and b) how reliable they were (if a country's silver pennies tend to vary between, say, 60% and 80% silver without any indication, they probably won't be worth as much as a country's with silver pennies that have stayed at 70% silver for the last 20 years). Platinum probably has no place in a realistic fantasy economy.

Varyon thank you! that does help alot. Stupid question though... when your PCs find coin.. do you say " you find 6 Queens, 2 Emperor, etc" or " you find 4000 in gold and silver and various other coins, etc"? .. more a courious question.

[Mark Caliber]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Platinum probably has no place in a realistic fantasy economy.

Actually it did historically! It was used as a counterfeit material for silver! . . . because way back when, it was worthless . . . (TOO hard to work with).

Oh the irony.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Mark Caliber

And then there's the problem that prices aren't going to be consistent historically.

The price of a bag of grain on a farm will be VERY low, but in the center of a city with a population of 2 million . . . during a famine, that same bag might be worth its weight in gold!

Oooo, did I just throw a wrench in your project? Gargh! Economics strikes again!

Pretty sure you can actually find that covered already...at least in part. Whether it's Fantasy, Low Tech Companion 3, or a Pyramid article you want.

Pricing food in famines and similar crisis-based rather than equilibrium pricing is, I think, left entirely as an exercise for the GM.