Raise a Million For GURPS

[Cybren]

Originally Posted by Kromm

This is very, very true. You might think I feel otherwise, given all the crunchy and rules-heavy material I write for GURPS – witness GURPS Powers, or the GURPS Power-Ups series, or even the reams of templates in GURPS Dungeon Fantasy. However, my publication list merely reflects the fact that I'm the custodian of the rules system. My job is fixing old rules, vetting new ones, checking that everything is consistent with them, and occasionally adding to them. My practical experience as a GM is that most of my players don't really look at the rules; they care about rules only when rules hinder their current Moment of Cool (or, occasionally, their power fantasy). I mean no offense to anyone reading when I say that the level of rules-concern I see on these forums is orders of magnitude out of whack with how the vast majority of gamers actually feel about rules.

For the most part the industry is going this way too: newer games are almost always rules light, story focused games like Apocalypse World (and its variants), FATE, or similar "don't let the rules get in the way" systems. Even d&d sort of went this way, 5e is much more lightweight than any previous version, at least, more so since the days of bell bottoms.

[Embassy of Time]

[Important note: I suffer from a condition I personally call hypothophobia, in that I am unable (or unwilling) to do things entirely on a hypothetical level. I take some conversations too serious, and try to turn ideas into reality, regardless of original intents. My apologies, in advance]

There are a lot of really good ideas here, and in many other threads (I started a GURPS' strengths thread that I already enjoy, to name one). What I keep thinking is "how can I/we do something with this?". Powered by GURPS is not an option (I asked), but people seem to be okay with just PDFs (or...?), so if there was a free fan-project* that pulled on ideas that people mention in here, does anyone think it would actually work? Could it draw some positive attention to GURPS (and the related Hero System seems to be in a bit of an identity crisis, too...)? Because I'm up for giving it a shot, if I feel there is more than just wishful thinking to all of this.

Originally Posted by Phil Masters

Which sounds like Infinite Worlds. An amusing concept as presented in the Basic Set, which Ken turned into a remarkably solid sourcebook, but never something which has set the hobby on fire.

IW, IOU, Black Ops and even Callahan's Crosstime Saloon all seem like perfect candidates for something. I do think it needs more flash, though; GURPS material tends to be solid and sensible, and most young gamers I met like things a bit more.... gonzo. Okay, IOU is gonzo, I always felt it was underused :)

* Yes, I have something particular in mind. I returned to GURPS specifically to see if it would fit, but then realized that maybe I could help out with something, rather than just use it as a basis. Maybe.

[GM Joe]

To come at this from another angle, have you ever noticed that the games people discuss a lot online are (legally) available for free or at very low cost? You can get Fate Core for free. Savage Worlds Deluxe Explorer Edition is $10 for the actual printed book (full-color!). There's also a lot of free and low-cost stuff people have made available online for both systems. And both get discussed a lot in the popular general RPG discussion forums.

Heck, D&D 5e is free. So are the many OSR games.

If GURPS simply can't play in that sandbox, then it may be that it will never become very popular in the modern era no matter what else SJGames does with it.

And maybe that's OK. Popuarity != profitability. But if being a not-free, not-low-cost RPG puts a low ceiling on your game's popularity these days, then it's something that needs to be taken into consideration if increasing the popularity of GURPS is a goal.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Embassy of Time

[...] most young gamers I met like things a bit more.... gonzo.

There is a sizeable cohort of young gamers who are curious about tabletop RPGs because they like MMORPGs . . . but they're only going to go there if tabletop RPGs have about the same level of player-facing complexity (i.e., rules and math are hidden, preferably in an app), if tabletop RPGs feed their addiction to power fantasies and grinding for levels, or both. Yes, one periodically hears tales of gamers from the digital world turning to tabletop games for more story or better world-building, but longtime fans of tabletop games (including designers) tend to give those voices disproportionate weight because they're saying what the traditionalists want to hear. The majority voice would be happy with app-mediated GURPS Dungeon Fantasy or GURPS Monster Hunters backed by a GURPS core recast to serve primarily as a design tool for more powers/techniques/perks/items/whatever to use as power-ups.

[Embassy of Time]

Originally Posted by GM Joe

To come at this from another angle, have you ever noticed that the games people discuss a lot online are (legally) available for free or at very low cost?

I never knew D&D5 was, I'm looking at it right now! It does seem to follow the trend I see in, well, basically anything. And as you mention, the popularity vs. profitability issue does rear its head when that fact is put in play (no pun intended).

Originally Posted by Kromm

[wisdom]

Sounds very logical, really. MMORPGs and CRPGs are what the new gamers know. It meshes nicely with the logic behind Munchkin's success, too.

So it looks like something is needed that is:
- Easy
- Free/cheap
- Grind-/loot-friendly

... and I'm going to stop even there. Because that sounds like "Munchkin, but more serious". Maybe there is a basic element of the GURPS mentality that needs looking at, to update the format (but not necesarily that much of the content or structure) to a new crowd? I'm not suggesting, I'm guessing. I'm learning right now :)

GURPS: The Card Game...? I don't know...

[scc]

Originally Posted by Embassy of Time

I never knew D&D5 was, I'm looking at it right now! It does seem to follow the trend I see in, well, basically anything. And as you mention, the popularity vs. profitability issue does rear its head when that fact is put in play (no pun intended).

Sounds very logical, really. MMORPGs and CRPGs are what the new gamers know. It meshes nicely with the logic behind Munchkin's success, too.

So it looks like something is needed that is:
- Easy
- Free/cheap
- Grind-/loot-friendly

... and I'm going to stop even there. Because that sounds like "Munchkin, but more serious". Maybe there is a basic element of the GURPS mentality that needs looking at, to update the format (but not necesarily that much of the content or structure) to a new crowd? I'm not suggesting, I'm guessing. I'm learning right now :)

GURPS: The Card Game...? I don't know...

Start with Lite
Remove everything not in DF [Optional but advised]
Add Magery and a half a dozen spells
Add a very short adventure with some loot, like clearing out a cave full of bandits

[robkelk]

Originally Posted by GM Joe

To come at this from another angle, have you ever noticed that the games people discuss a lot online are (legally) available for free or at very low cost? You can get Fate Core for free. ...

The last time I looked, GURPS Lite was also free. It's about as "complete" as FATE Core is.

I'm not sure that cost is the issue here.

[Cybren]

Originally Posted by robkelk

The last time I looked, GURPS Lite was also free. It's about as "complete" as FATE Core is.

I'm not sure that cost is the issue here.

I doubt the free version of D&D5E is any more popular than GURPS lite is, relative to either games market penetration. It's likely that they just have the same "DM owns all the books and players with low system mastery will reference the free book in their spare time to refresh on some rules" that many RPGs have had as their paradigm

[robertsconley]

Originally Posted by Kromm

There is a sizeable cohort of young gamers who are curious about tabletop RPGs because they like MMORPGs . . . but they're only going to go there if tabletop RPGs have about the same level of player-facing complexity (i.e., rules and math are hidden, preferably in an app), if tabletop RPGs feed their addiction to power fantasies and grinding for levels, or both. Yes, one periodically hears tales of gamers from the digital world turning to tabletop games for more story or better world-building, but longtime fans of tabletop games (including designers) tend to give those voices disproportionate weight because they're saying what the traditionalists want to hear. The majority voice would be happy with app-mediated GURPS Dungeon Fantasy or GURPS Monster Hunters backed by a GURPS core recast to serve primarily as a design tool for more powers/techniques/perks/items/whatever to use as power-ups.

I disagree, my experience that the situation is very fluid because how easily the internet and cell phone enables communication. They form groups to do X, do X intensely and eventually it fades in favor doing Y. Sometime the group is stable they move as a whole sometimes it isn't.

They are perfectly willing to try and stick with traditional games but it goes way up if they can do the same game digital because of the ease of creating meetup on-line. For example a first person shooter I hang out occasionally plays board game using a program Tabletop Simulator. It is a 3D virtual environment that can faithfully replicate the physical pieces of a board game. I played King of Tokyo with them (and won 2 out of 3 games). The same with virtual tabletops like Fantasy Grounds and Roll20.

They also respect a personal hands on approach. Showing rather telling about games and such. I ran games for college age folks, and other games for a group of Boy Scouts. They all liked the games I ran and the boy scouts started talking about how to run RPG campaigns among themselves. But if I wasn't there doing it myself I doubt they would seriously consider playing.

The key element of RPGs that seems to be appealing is the fact they far greater control over what their character can do and how they can effect their world compared to computer games.

[robertsconley]

Originally Posted by GM Joe

To come at this from another angle, have you ever noticed that the games people discuss a lot online are (legally) available for free or at very low cost? You can get Fate Core for free. Savage Worlds Deluxe Explorer Edition is $10 for the actual printed book (full-color!). There's also a lot of free and low-cost stuff people have made available online for both systems. And both get discussed a lot in the popular general RPG discussion forums.

Heck, D&D 5e is free. So are the many OSR games.

If GURPS simply can't play in that sandbox, then it may be that it will never become very popular in the modern era no matter what else SJGames does with it.

And maybe that's OK. Popuarity != profitability. But if being a not-free, not-low-cost RPG puts a low ceiling on your game's popularity these days, then it's something that needs to be taken into consideration if increasing the popularity of GURPS is a goal.

It because in the on-line world people prize things that you can mess around with and freely share. Basically a Do it yourself ethos is the heart and the soul of the OSR and the Fate community. Submitting things to be published by other is not so prized. However helping others to get publish or to supply some missing skill set like layout, art, etc is prized.