Exotic Parahumans vs Uplifted Animals [Biotech]

AlexanderHowl · 11-06-2020, 11:59 AM

One of the staples of speculative fiction (and mythology) are human-animal hybrids. Whether they are friends or enemies, lovers or slaves, heroes or comic relief, they can be found throughout speculative fiction. Now, while it is possible to create them as uplifted animals using the rules in Biotech, designing them as exotic parahumans often works better.

For example, imagine that you are a TL10 genetic engineer who wants to make a species of bear folk for super soldiers. They decide to make them as parahumans with ST+6, DX+2, IQ+2, HT+2, Blunt Claws, Combat Reflexes, Extended Lifespan 2, Fur, Longevity, Night Vision 5, Sharp Teeth, and Very Fit, allowing them to be superior soldiers by any definition. Conversely, attempting to uplift a bear to a soldier at TL10 results in a rather pathetic soldier.

So, in your opinion, is there really a need for uplifted animals in the majority of cases, or is it better to use exotic parahumans instead? Of course, really large animals like elephants are better uplifted, they just have so much already going for them, but that is likely the exception rather than the rule. For everything else though, what do you think is better?

Sam Baughn · 11-06-2020, 01:29 PM

The obvious issue with upgrading humans into super-soldiers is that few people want their children genetically destined to be front line infantry rather than just really clever, healthy, and attractive. So you will probably need to pay a lot of money to encourage them, on top of the cost of the upgrades themselves. Then you have the little problem that humans take quite some time to grow and not only will you have to spend decades troubleshooting the design, but your super-soldiers will probably be a decade behind bleeding-edge biotech compared to whoever is using animals. Not to mention any social issues with having super-soldiers who don't want to join the military, didn't actually turn out that super, or retired hanging around in your society.

Uplifted animals, on the other hand, can be raised quickly and disposed of if they don't work out. The downside being that they are completely unsuited to likely future warfare, due to subhuman intelligence and inhuman psychology.

Really, either option seems unlikely compared to just using robots, unless we really stall progress in electronics for a long time while constantly improving bio-tech.

Paulon · 11-06-2020, 03:04 PM

Assuming a society which has broadly similar attitudes to a western democacy, legal protections come to mind as a reason to work with animals and avoid human DNA. Early on in a period after genetic uplift becomes practical, the laws would probably be lagging behind the capability of the science so you can argue that even a sapient uplifted animal has no legal rights beyond those related to animal cruelty. I'd expect that to change eventually, but it wouldn't be quick, especially if entrenched interests didn't want to lose their 'valuable livestock'.
If the genetic engineers have a forced growth method and some means to rapidly instruct their product, they can also mass produce animal soldiers faster than they can do the same with enhanced humans, who hopefully have legal protections of some sort. Quantity can be a good counter for quality, especially if you don't care about your soldier's lives.

With a more ruthless society which ignores human rights, I'd expect them to go for whatever is more cost-effective from their military perspective. Given a lead time, like a cold war against a long-term rival, human soldiers given full training might be better, while an unexpected conflict, say a hostile first contact/planetary invasion in an interstellar setting, with a sudden unanticipated need for troops would favor quickly uplifted 'disposable' or at least less valuable troops who could be deployed quickly despite being inferior individually, and maybe buy time for enhanced and trained humans to be deployed.

benz72 · 11-06-2020, 03:04 PM

Something tells me that military applications of TL10 genetics are not 'big strong bears' but rather 'customizable precisely targeted maladies with high infection rates'.

But to the original premise, If you can vat grow a custom mammal you avoid some of the problems Sam mentions, but you still run into the idea of intelligent loyalty. Anything that is smart enough to do well on a TL10 battlefield is also going to either want part of the good life when it is done fighting or be a really dangerous thing to have around.
I'm assuming you don't have the ability to program in Slave Mentality or 'selectively breed for service' like the cow in The Restaurant at the End of the Universe.

AlexanderHowl · 11-06-2020, 03:18 PM

Slave Mentality is an undesirable trait in a soldier, as it means that the soldier takes orders from everyone. Also, any parahuman or uplift can also be designed as a bioroid, so quick production is possible either way at TL10.

rkbrown419 · 11-06-2020, 05:22 PM

Rather than slave mentality you'd probably want an indoctrinated sense of duty to the nation that created your uplifts. Part of their education if they're standard uplifts or wired into their brain structure if they're bioroids.

Rupert · 11-06-2020, 07:00 PM

Rather than Slave Mentality you want Reprogrammable.

ericthered · 11-07-2020, 06:09 AM

at some point the resulting creation is different enough that it doesn't matter if you call it a parahuman or an uplift. I suspect that's the spot you really want.

sufficiently exotic parahumans probably have the best psychological basis to work with. Unless there is some animal whose psychology is weirdly suited for modern war.

Tyneras · 11-07-2020, 05:38 PM

The only thing biological creatures will do on a TL10 battlefield is die. Given what cutting edge modern tech carried by a drone can do, this likely also applies to TL9 battlefields.

So in this particular arena, the parahuman and uplift are equal, because they are both worthless.

If one is being brutally realistic, from TL9 onward biological creatures are art projects. They are completely obsolete from all commercial, industrial, scientific and military perspectives.

If this is some sort of TL10 blood sport arena of uplift vs parahuman, then probably the parahuman.

AlexanderHowl · 11-07-2020, 06:57 PM

An IQ 12 parahuman can outthink any AI below complexity 9, so they are only matched by a microframe. Anyway, it is not an either or proposition, they can direct drones better than a baseline human. They are also likely protected by the rules of war while drones are not, which becomes a key advantage when lasers and railguns can destroy drones from orbit.

11-06-2020, 11:59 AM	#1
AlexanderHowl Join Date: Feb 2016	Exotic Parahumans vs Uplifted Animals [Biotech] One of the staples of speculative fiction (and mythology) are human-animal hybrids. Whether they are friends or enemies, lovers or slaves, heroes or comic relief, they can be found throughout speculative fiction. Now, while it is possible to create them as uplifted animals using the rules in Biotech, designing them as exotic parahumans often works better. For example, imagine that you are a TL10 genetic engineer who wants to make a species of bear folk for super soldiers. They decide to make them as parahumans with ST+6, DX+2, IQ+2, HT+2, Blunt Claws, Combat Reflexes, Extended Lifespan 2, Fur, Longevity, Night Vision 5, Sharp Teeth, and Very Fit, allowing them to be superior soldiers by any definition. Conversely, attempting to uplift a bear to a soldier at TL10 results in a rather pathetic soldier. So, in your opinion, is there really a need for uplifted animals in the majority of cases, or is it better to use exotic parahumans instead? Of course, really large animals like elephants are better uplifted, they just have so much already going for them, but that is likely the exception rather than the rule. For everything else though, what do you think is better?

11-06-2020, 01:29 PM	#2
Sam Baughn Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: United Kingdom of Great Britain and some other bits.	Re: Exotic Parahumans vs Uplifted Animals [Biotech] The obvious issue with upgrading humans into super-soldiers is that few people want their children genetically destined to be front line infantry rather than just really clever, healthy, and attractive. So you will probably need to pay a lot of money to encourage them, on top of the cost of the upgrades themselves. Then you have the little problem that humans take quite some time to grow and not only will you have to spend decades troubleshooting the design, but your super-soldiers will probably be a decade behind bleeding-edge biotech compared to whoever is using animals. Not to mention any social issues with having super-soldiers who don't want to join the military, didn't actually turn out that super, or retired hanging around in your society. Uplifted animals, on the other hand, can be raised quickly and disposed of if they don't work out. The downside being that they are completely unsuited to likely future warfare, due to subhuman intelligence and inhuman psychology. Really, either option seems unlikely compared to just using robots, unless we really stall progress in electronics for a long time while constantly improving bio-tech.

11-06-2020, 03:04 PM	#3
Paulon Join Date: Feb 2005	Re: Exotic Parahumans vs Uplifted Animals [Biotech] Assuming a society which has broadly similar attitudes to a western democacy, legal protections come to mind as a reason to work with animals and avoid human DNA. Early on in a period after genetic uplift becomes practical, the laws would probably be lagging behind the capability of the science so you can argue that even a sapient uplifted animal has no legal rights beyond those related to animal cruelty. I'd expect that to change eventually, but it wouldn't be quick, especially if entrenched interests didn't want to lose their 'valuable livestock'. If the genetic engineers have a forced growth method and some means to rapidly instruct their product, they can also mass produce animal soldiers faster than they can do the same with enhanced humans, who hopefully have legal protections of some sort. Quantity can be a good counter for quality, especially if you don't care about your soldier's lives. With a more ruthless society which ignores human rights, I'd expect them to go for whatever is more cost-effective from their military perspective. Given a lead time, like a cold war against a long-term rival, human soldiers given full training might be better, while an unexpected conflict, say a hostile first contact/planetary invasion in an interstellar setting, with a sudden unanticipated need for troops would favor quickly uplifted 'disposable' or at least less valuable troops who could be deployed quickly despite being inferior individually, and maybe buy time for enhanced and trained humans to be deployed.

11-06-2020, 03:04 PM	#4
benz72 Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Chagrin Falls	Re: Exotic Parahumans vs Uplifted Animals [Biotech] Something tells me that military applications of TL10 genetics are not 'big strong bears' but rather 'customizable precisely targeted maladies with high infection rates'. But to the original premise, If you can vat grow a custom mammal you avoid some of the problems Sam mentions, but you still run into the idea of intelligent loyalty. Anything that is smart enough to do well on a TL10 battlefield is also going to either want part of the good life when it is done fighting or be a really dangerous thing to have around. I'm assuming you don't have the ability to program in Slave Mentality or 'selectively breed for service' like the cow in The Restaurant at the End of the Universe. __________________ Benundefined Life has a funny way of making sure you decide to leave the party just a few minutes too late to avoid trouble.

11-06-2020, 03:18 PM	#5
AlexanderHowl Join Date: Feb 2016	Re: Exotic Parahumans vs Uplifted Animals [Biotech] Slave Mentality is an undesirable trait in a soldier, as it means that the soldier takes orders from everyone. Also, any parahuman or uplift can also be designed as a bioroid, so quick production is possible either way at TL10.

11-06-2020, 05:22 PM	#6
rkbrown419 Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Orem, Utah, USA	Re: Exotic Parahumans vs Uplifted Animals [Biotech] Rather than slave mentality you'd probably want an indoctrinated sense of duty to the nation that created your uplifts. Part of their education if they're standard uplifts or wired into their brain structure if they're bioroids.

11-06-2020, 07:00 PM	#7
Rupert Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Wellington, NZ	Re: Exotic Parahumans vs Uplifted Animals [Biotech] Rather than Slave Mentality you want Reprogrammable. __________________ Rupert Boleyn "A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history."

11-07-2020, 06:09 AM	#8
ericthered Hero of Democracy Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: far from the ocean	Re: Exotic Parahumans vs Uplifted Animals [Biotech] at some point the resulting creation is different enough that it doesn't matter if you call it a parahuman or an uplift. I suspect that's the spot you really want. sufficiently exotic parahumans probably have the best psychological basis to work with. Unless there is some animal whose psychology is weirdly suited for modern war. __________________ Be helpful, not pedantic Worlds Beyond Earth -- my blog Check out the PbP forum! If you don't see a game you'd like, ask me about making one!

11-07-2020, 05:38 PM	#9
Tyneras Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Kentucky, USA	Re: Exotic Parahumans vs Uplifted Animals [Biotech] The only thing biological creatures will do on a TL10 battlefield is die. Given what cutting edge modern tech carried by a drone can do, this likely also applies to TL9 battlefields. So in this particular arena, the parahuman and uplift are equal, because they are both worthless. If one is being brutally realistic, from TL9 onward biological creatures are art projects. They are completely obsolete from all commercial, industrial, scientific and military perspectives. If this is some sort of TL10 blood sport arena of uplift vs parahuman, then probably the parahuman.

11-07-2020, 06:57 PM	#10
AlexanderHowl Join Date: Feb 2016	Re: Exotic Parahumans vs Uplifted Animals [Biotech] An IQ 12 parahuman can outthink any AI below complexity 9, so they are only matched by a microframe. Anyway, it is not an either or proposition, they can direct drones better than a baseline human. They are also likely protected by the rules of war while drones are not, which becomes a key advantage when lasers and railguns can destroy drones from orbit.