Fatigue Attack or Leech to target ER instead of FP?

[Plane]

P119 initially makes this seem like a "hard no":

Fatigue Attacks, missed sleep, and so on don’t sap it

But earlier P40 sounded like you could make exceptions with some modifiers (Immunity to Metabolic Hazards stops afflictions except for "Only on Electrical" which builds in "affects electrical which is normally immune" somehow)

Toolkit 2 mentions how if you're Electrical [-20] but Immune to Electricity [15] that (non-resistible only, I assume) "attacks that drain electrical energy" are still an issue.

M180 has Conduct Power / Draw Power which might be related. Floating the "Machine Spells" policy (M175 ban v 'Sapient' machines) to "Energy Spells" sounds like it would be fair, or at least to make it Resistible like "Steal Energy" is in Necromancy?

You can be "Not Subject to Fatigue" (TK2p12) but still have "electrical energy" I would assume, so an Energy Reserve seems like the closest thing to represent that.

P126 lists possible sources of "Electricity" (generating) or "Electrokinesis" (controlling) as Divine/Elemental/Super or Psionic/Super. So the ER would need to be defined as one of those sources, and then possibly take "One Power" limitation if you had another power from the same source (you could for example have a 1pt "Fire" power also with "source: elemental" to get this benefit: it's a great idea!)

Would it seem unreasonable to allow "Only on Electrical" on Fatigue Attack / Leech to replace draining FP with draining ER? Leech already allows the reverse: it can use stolen FP/HP to refill ER.

This wasn't something done in Psionic Powers under either Ergokinesis or Electrokinesis though I'm wondering if I missed it being done in a Pyramid somewhere.

If this isn't possible then I guess I need to look closer at abilities I've ignored like "Control" to possibly cover this? P91 "Effects of Control" doesn't seem to mention Control (Source) being used to drain ER (Source) though.

Could "Neutralize" disable ER if you didn't take a power modifier (reliance on source) on it? ER w/ Mana-Sensitive added to it I think would empty the ER to 0 (like a newly created Powerstone) vs "wild ER" which remains full even in situations (like Static or Neutralize) which would shut down advantages tied to the source it fuels?

If Neutralize can't shut down (and thus Power Theft) ER (Super; Electrical Only -50%) then I guess it could do that to ER (Super; Electrical -10%; Electrical Only -50%) ? At that point the thief would have the ER and could use it up, and then put it back empty?

Something like "I need to remain in contact with your reserve to tap it" for Neutralize is something I'd like to see. I can only figure taking Fixed+Reduced Duration reducing the time to 1 second so you'd need to constantly be attacking to reinstate it, and need "Extra Attack" or "Compartmentalized Mind" to try and do other stuff simultaneously.

[Taneli]

WWIW, I could absolutely see an ability that drains your ER, whether by just wasting it, or transferring it back to the attacker.

I would price it the same as Fatigue Attack or Leech (Fatigue), but it would be separate, and limited to just one form of Energy Reserve. So, if you have Energy Reserve (Magic) Attack, and the target has Energy Reserve (Psychic), you basically waste your attack.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Taneli

I would price it the same as Fatigue Attack or Leech (Fatigue), but it would be separate, and limited to just one form of Energy Reserve.

So, if you have Energy Reserve (Magic) Attack, and the target has Energy Reserve (Psychic), you basically waste your attack.

Yeah, I was thinking it might operate similar to "Hazard" where you could only specify one type to target.

[Anaraxes]

I'd allow it. ERs are separate from FP for this purpose (among many others), so you would have to specify -- or build an AA, or link multiple attacks to simultaneously drain FP and magic ER and psychic ER and chi ER (etc.). If you have a game with a crazy number of power sources, then you'll have to ponder an appropriate cost for "all of the above". (The 5x rule of thumb would probably do; compare the cost of an N-way Linked AA Group.)

I don't think the original rules cite was meant to say "ER's cant be drained under any circumstances". It's just emphasizing that ERs do not contain FP, so events that cost FP don't affect them. ERs are just another kind of energy pool, not subject to fatigue attacks. But that doesn't mean they're invulnerable energy pools, not subject to any sort of attack.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

I don't think the original rules cite was meant to say "ER's cant be drained under any circumstances". It's just emphasizing that ERs do not contain FP, so events that cost FP don't affect them. ERs are just another kind of energy pool, not subject to fatigue attacks. But that doesn't mean they're invulnerable energy pools, not subject to any sort of attack.

Yeah, it's just about getting a legal mechanic for it. It's just strange they didn't include it in Leech since it's not like they forgot about it or anything, as it does mention the user depositing their gains to ER, just not sapping it from them.

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by Plane

Yeah, it's just about getting a legal mechanic for it. It's just strange they didn't include it in Leech since it's not like they forgot about it or anything, as it does mention the user depositing their gains to ER, just not sapping it from them.

My guess isn't that it isn't fair to just switch it over, but likely because they didn't like that as a regular option for FP attacks and Leech. Earlier books sometimes did that where they wanted something to work within certain confines (although a bit ironic for Powers). Really, FP attack (ER of X power source) makes for a perfect anti-power, especially if it is known that power has a lost of FP costs or is something like Sorcery where FP costs are mandatory.

Also, I think Neutralize has a modifier for hitting any power, you could just port that over to Leech/IA for striking any ER (and I'd like let it also hit FP at that point as either/or).