Limitations on Modular Abilities: Unbalanced?

[Yako]

I have been taking an interest in GURPS for a while and am quite happy about how open the system is to truly emulate any character of your choice. Thus, I did just that and decided to make a character of mine I used in free roleplay into numbers and statistics.
I was pretty surprised at first how the points kept increasing as some rather expensive advantages (Like Unkillable) where part of the deal, but when I got better with the limitation mechanics, I quickly did realize that he was, as planned, less powerful (in terms of points) than the base cost of some of the advantages suggested.

On the flip side though, I ended up with one ability getting actually too cheap to still be fair: The capability to summon demons.

My first idea, going for magery was quickly discarded due to the summoning spells being not designed for quick summoning and also requiring prerequisites the character did not know.
Summonable ally was much better to emulate the ability, and thanks to a certain article about designing summonable allies with modular abilities, it got even better.
However, as the extremely flexible cosmic power version from the article was, again, too powerful for what the character could do, I took another look at the rules and decided to rather use discrete slots based on super memorization, which, mechanically, suited the idea of needing a book of true names and further trappings to contact demons which then could be summoned at will later perfectly.
However, adding the limitations used on the modular ability (-50% for being restricted to summonable allies and, for example, preparation required worth - 30%), I ended up with a peculiar case of the Modular Ability now costing LESS than buying the ally as a constant summonable companion.

Let me stress my point, the Modular Ability, once prepared and all, works exactly like having bought a permanent summonable ally, no disadvantages to that, but costs less.
A 40 point ally (which is what I needed for a summonable demon of 150% the characters power with several limitations to bring the cost down) ended up costing mere 25 points as modular ability - which of course still had the advantage of being able to summon a whole plethora of different demons.
The logical conclusion of course is that making this ability should not be allowed by a game master, I for sure would not allow it, but my question is, how do I price it fairly?
Is it okay as long as the modular ability costs at least as much as the points it bestows? Or should limitations be priced down, or only those allowed which clearly make it LESS useful than the advantage it grants?
For example a side effect which can at a failed roll make the ability backfire by making the demon uncontrollable (due to the initial summoning binding being flawed) or the classical limited uses?
But then again, to which degree does a modular ability need to be restricted (beyond limitations like preparation required, trigger or similar which, once fulfilled, make the ability work without any trouble whatsoever) and how much more expensive does it have to be in order to be fairly priced.

It is after all not only the demon summoning, any modular ability with a per point cost smaller than 5 can, with restrictions in available traits and extra preparation and the like be made into a clever way of saving points by making an advantage cost less then it normally would - and still supply the freedom of, no matter to which limit, exchanging it for a different one more apt for the situation.

Does anyone have a good solution for this dilemma?

Edit:

jeff wilson was so kind to suggest this model of first buying the point value of the slot without any modifications and then applying all modifers seperately to the cost of each slot and the extra points you have to spend for each point of modular ability.
E.g.: Super memorization with limitations worth -80% and 40 allocatable points turns into:

40 points + 5 - 80% + 40 x (3-1) - 80% = 57 cp

I did decide on using custom made modular ability using the rules from powers though to allow a more flexible method of summoning either from book (slow and safe) or from memory (faster but less reliable) using the rules for alternative limitations:

Demon Summoning: Modular Ability (Long Catalogue 5 points per slot, Reallocation of points can be subjected to minor external influences and takes a small amount of time 1 + 3 points per cp ) 40 points - 1 Slot; Only Summonable Demon Allies, -50%; costs HP (2), -20%; either: Preparation required (10 Minutes), -30%; Gadget Limitation: Grimmoir, Size Modifier - 5, 10%; Breakable (DR 6), - 10% OR Attribute Roll required (IQ), -10%; Nuisance Effect (Can only have memorized up to IQ number of demons' true names; critical failure on IQ roll makes a different and / or uncontrollable demon appear, - 10%) [65]

Any different suggestions for rulings on this issue are still encouraged as well as feedback on the current build up of the modular ability.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Yako

However, adding the limitations used on the comsic ability (-50% for being restricted to summonable allies and, for example, preparation required worth - 30%), I ended up with a peculiar case of the Modular Ability now costing LESS than buying the ally as a constant summonable companion.

The main problem is here. The -50% limitation for restriction to summonable allies isn't valid on Super Memorization, since it overlaps the restriction for having a suitable reference.

But yes, it is still possible to break them if you can come up with alternative limitations that stack to -80%. The problem is the forms of Modular Abilities other than Cosmic essentially are already partially limited, but since they are listed listed as alternate costs rather than limitations, the rules don't actually say that.


Let me stress my point, the Modular Ability, once prepared and all, works exactly like having bought a permanent summonable ally, no disadvantages to that, but costs less.
A 40 point ally (which is what I needed for a summonable demon of 150% the characters power with several limitations to bring the cost down) ended up costing mere 25 points as modular ability - which of course still had the advantage of being able to summon a whole plethora of different demons.
The logical conclusion of course is that making this ability should not be allowed by a game master, I for sure would not allow it, but my question is, how do I price it fairly?
Is it okay as long as the modular ability costs at least as much as the points it bestows? Or should limitations be priced down, or only those allowed which clearly make it LESS useful than the advantage it grants?
For example a side effect which can at a failed roll make the ability backfire by making the demon uncontrollable (due to the initial summoning binding being flawed) or the classical limited uses?
But then again, to which degree does a modular ability need to be restricted (beyond limitations like preparation required, trigger or similar which, once fulfilled, make the ability work without any trouble whatsoever) and how much more expensive does it have to be in order to be fairly priced.

It is after all not only the demon summoning, any modular ability with a per point cost smaller than 5 can, with restrictions in available traits and extra preparation and the like be made into a clever way of saving points by making an advantage cost less then it normally would - and still supply the freedom of, no matter to which limit, exchanging it for a different one more apt for the situation.

Does anyone have a good solution for this dilemma?[/QUOTE]

[lexington]

Originally Posted by Yako

Does anyone have a good solution for this dilemma?

Use slotted cosmic abilites (or whatever they're called) instead of pricing it on your own. They show up in Supers. I think the cost is 5 per slot and 6 per point of ability.

[Yako]

@malloyd: Hmh, well, reading Powers, there is indeed the point that he limitation of the traits is factored in the non cosmic power form of modular abilities, however, this factor applies to the costs per slot only, the point costs are only based on how easy they are to distribute, ranging from 2 points for something both costly, slow and susceptible to external influence to 5 points for a quasi cosmic power with slots instead of completely free distribution (which are fairly priced compared to each other in my opinion).
And while indeed there is a certain dilemma about whether or not to apply the limitations of available traits twice, or which of the two slot costs and limitation take precedent, Powers, which has the rules for all this, does not state the limitations are exclusive to cosmical power or forbid them for any of the described forms of modular abilities.
Indeed, while the solution does have its benefits, the need of a reference and the restriction of available traits do not so much overlap as stack together.
After all, the standard version Super Memorization does indeed offer a broader scope of available abilities.
The limitation itself surely is a limitation, even though it should definitely not be the full 50% cut off (which I think is a bit too much for ally anyway since even with its restrictions, it is still much broader than stuff like toxic attacks (which are listed with a less high limitation value) given that a summonable ally can have basically ANY trait)...

But even then, the rules even suggest enough other limitations as legit which are just as easily usable to tailor a modular ability less expensive than what it's slot offers - because you needn't even change it and thus can just enjoy the price cut on an ability anyway.
For example, take attribute role, fatigue costs, preparation required / extra time (for fast abilities) and you can get to 80% price cut without even touching the new limitations from Powers.

Most of all, I do wonder where the limit lies, how much limitations which do not also affect the ability once set up can you take?
Would limiting it to 2 points per point of modular ability (which is the maximum of what you can get with cosmic power) be fair?
Or does it just need to be at least as much as the points of modular ability you get?
And in that case, which would be legal limitations to drop the costs beneath that?

@Lexington: It is the other way around, or to be exact, it would 7 per slot and five per point of ability in the least restricted case, but that still leaves the question open: Is it okay to get an ability you can tailor to your needs daily (even if only in a certain limited frame of options), or perhaps even more frequent at basically the same cost (5 points - 80% each would be 1 point plus the 7 - 80% = 2 per slot) as an unchanging ability?
It could be perhaps somewhat fair still comparing it to alternative abilities...
(The most highly ability restricted modular ability with the 5 points per point cost would make it similar to 7 to 8 alternative abilities which still can be switched faster)
Still, when I put all the required limitations on the modular ability, even with this point cost, it is pretty cheap and so easy to make even cheaper.

I would simply like to know, how cheap should a modular ability be allowed to be when it's restrictions don't enter into play once the ability is set up?

[lexington]

Looking at my books I'd say you don't need to be putting limitations on anything. The exact modular ability you're looking for already exists in the form of Modular Abilities (Grimore) from Supers.

Of course this doesn't solve the problem you've found.

[munin]

I've been thinking about the same thing. I'm currently considering a house rule that most limitations are only applied to the slot cost (limitations which affect how the modular ability may be used), and that the only limitation which can be applied to the pool cost is the Limited limitation (affecting what kinds of traits may be allocated in the pool)*. Since Limited maxes out RAW at -50%** and the cheapest modular ability is 2 points per point of abilities, that means a modular ability (including its slot cost) will always cost more than an allocated ability. Cosmic Power can be limited as usual.

Just to check, would you mind posting your builds?

EDIT: Oh, and Social and Physical also apply to the pool cost.

* This conceptual division of a Modular Ability's make-up actually reverses the assignment of concepts in designing new modular abilities described in GURPS Powers (p. 63), but it makes more sense to me.
** Unfortunately, I have another house-rule/interpretation that limiting your modular ability to improving specific traits is worth -20% plus the value of limiting your MA to adding those specific traits. For example, Skills Only is -10% so Improve Skills Only would be -30%. This lets Limited get down to -70% for, say, Improve Summonable Minion Allies Only.

[Yako]

@Lexington: Yes, but then again, Grimmoire is basically super memorization changing the fluff...
Still, some of the advantages there are quite useful as a guideline in setting up the ability properly...
I think, for this case, just setting up the ability different will work best...

@munin: Well, that would be one option certainly, but perhaps not the most satisfying one for my taste...

I definitely agree though that the mechanic of pricing the slot based on the availability of the abilities isa bit unfortunate.

I think what I might do though is go into a bit of the direction of what malloyd said and change how modular abilities work, namely putting the restrictions of the different pricing modells and the limitations into one category. It simply doesn't add up well to be able to have both the ability to tinker with percentile limitations AND altering what the base cost is.

I mean, why not simply make a couple of limitations which do emulate the old models and then have one base cost for slotted abilities and one for cosmic powers (which have the advantage of free distribution), which both start at the somewhat equal point of unlimited freedom of reassigning?

If we start with the 7 per slot + 5 per point of the most unlimited slotted ability from powers, a - 20% limitation would be 5 points per slot and 4 point per point of ability, which is almost exactly the 6 / 4 modular abilities like computer brain, - 40% would be 5 / 3 (Super memorization and chip slot) and - 60% would give one 3 / 2 for a really restricted ability, with the cheapest possibility being 2 / 1, which, while really cheap, is at least better than being able to get an ability for less than it is worth.

After all, with the model as it stands, it would, theoretically, be possible to cascade the advantage ad infinitum, by having a modular ability - which grants modular ability (sufficient limitations are easy to come by) and then go on making an ever increasing slot which, at the end, could be used to create a truly almighty super power.
Yes, that is something no GM would allow, but it still bothers me a bit that the system itself has no fail safe against that abuse...

Concerning the two asterisk comment, well, given how ally works, I would say enhancing a summonable ally is not possible, but that is of course subject to interpretation...
My original built for the ability was, since you asked:

Demon Summoning [ Modular Ability (Super Memorization, 1 Slot, 40 Points): Only Allies with summonable and Demonic -50%; Preparation Required 2 Minutes – 30%] 25 points

I thought about improving it by downrating the ability limitation to - 40 % and adding fickle (and reducing the preparation required to one minute) to make it more balanced since fickle actually makes the ability granted less useful, but I think I will stick with the idea of having it be based on the 7 / 5 cost and adding limitations to represent the modular ability's restrictions.

By the way, I was pondering another thing in this context.

For the sake of writing it up as a modular ability, I handwaved away the fact that the character, before he got "gurps-ified", was able to summon known demons without extensive preparation required.Looking at the Reconfigurable Mechanisms Modular ability from supers, I was thinking about why not try to make it so that the modular ability also represents this (yes, I know, said ability does actually work with pricing points differently for the different modi operandi).
I know there is a enhancement which allows the user to decide between multiple unrelated enhancements when using his skill, but is there a similar version for limitations? (I mean, aside of making it an alternative ability, which likely would be a bit overpriced give what alternative ability is supposed to allow)
Is it legal for example to use said enhancement and then reducing the ability according to its least severe limitation?
For example: Demon Summoning [Modular ability, 1 slot (7 points), 40 points (200 points) (- 50% only summonable allies with demonic; selectivity {(Only from a list of IQ (representing the limited memory capacity) demons - ?%; requires IQ roll - 10 % ; Nuisance effect (uncontrollable demon on failed IQ roll) - ? %) OR (preparation required (10 Minutes) - 30%; only when having access to a book of true names - 10%); + 10%} - 30% (or less depending on how the two limitations with ? are priced)] 42 points.
Or should switching between limitations be worth more, for example: -x% / y
Where x is he least limitation and y the number of limitations between which one can switch?
This would make the ability cost 62 points which would likely be a more fair price.
I was also thinking whether to drop the value of the only summonable allies with demonic from - 50% to - 40 % due to allies being so variable and in exchange add costs HP to simulate an energy cost for contacting a demon.

Any input regarding this from one of you?

[munin]

Being able to choose on the fly between multiple limitations is much less limiting than any of the individual limitations. RPK has a house-rule that you multiply the limitation values together -- for example, Preparation Required, 10 minutes (-30%) OR Costs Fatigue, 2 FP (-10%) would be a -3% limitation (30% times 10%). Accessibility (Weakened) (p. B110) and Weakened Without Preparation (p. B114) are sort of RAW examples of this house rule.

[Yako]

Hmh, honestly, I don't like how its scales, it is very much like the rule from powers to multiply limitations / enhancements with each other instead of adding them up...
On the other hand, in my case, the difference is 4% (40% x 40% = 16%; (40% + 40 %) / 2 = 20%), thus I can just as well use this and increase the modifier for the one version to 50% to get what I had...

I only need to figure out how to best price the accesibility limitation and the nuisance effect...

By the way, are here any good rules for more severe nuisance effects than those presented in Basic?

[jeff_wilson]

Originally Posted by Yako

Demon Summoning [ Modular Ability (Super Memorization, 1 Slot, 40 Points): Only Allies with summonable and Demonic -50%; Preparation Required 2 Minutes – 30%] 25 points
[...]
Any input regarding this from one of you?

The limitations values are excessively generous. Only summonable Allies is not particularly limiting since summonable Aliies can do even more things than you can with Modular Abilities. BTW, Ally is technically a Social advantage and of course the Allies can have physical abilities - and since there is no game-mechanical magic spell to cast or resist or be counter spelled, etc. being able to re-arrange points to summon allies with appropriate abilities crosses into the Social and Physical realms, which cost more points, plus user-designed allies rate at least a +100% enhancement according to the FAQ.

The 2 minutes' Preparation Required is not worth -30%, since Super Memorization (assuming it is still relevant given the above conflicts) requires 1 second per point to use anyway. that's most of a minute on a 40-point slot , so you'd have to spend an hour preparing to earn -30% over and above the minute level.

I can't locate the Demonic modifier, if you could cite the source for that and/or the article that you mention, I could give you more feedback.