GURPS Ultra-Lite -- thoughts

[Der Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty

• A Wildcard! skill at Att-2 [6] or +4 to a Wildcard! skill [42 or 48]

Doesn't it always give +4 to a set of skills?

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty

Abe: Normal ST, Normal DX, Weak IQ, Normal HT, Wealthy, four skills at level 1 [14]

Bob: Normal ST, Agile DX, Normal IQ, Weak HT, Charismatic, one skill at level 3 [156]

Abe (Level 4 / 170 CPs)
Weak IQ (-1 Level / -40CPs)
Wealthy (+1 Level / 30 CPs)
4 Wildcard skill @ +4 (4 Levels / ~180 CPs)

Bob (Level 4 / 195 CPs)
Agile DX (1 Level / 40 CPs)
Weak HT (-1 Level / -20 CPs)
Charismatic (1 Level / 40 CPs)
Wildcard skill @ +12 (3 Levels / 135 CPs)

One of us is completely wrong (or I'm completely misunderstanding you)???

[Der Wanderer]

Originally Posted by jacobmuller

Niggle: Ninja I with DX 12 and Ninja 2 would have 12 - 6 +8 = 14 to hit, etc...
You're out by about 8.
But a good lesson - attack with Your characters strengths, do not attack your enemies strengths.

Yes, but they also get half enemy skill bonus as penalty to their attack, so Ninja I vs Ninja II is actually 12 - 6 (learned task) + 8 (skill) - 6 (half skill Bonus Ninja II) = 8 and vice versa 10 - 6 (learned task) + 12 (skill) - 4 (half skill Bonus Ninja I)= 12...

[Langy]

You're forgetting the default -6 to all tasks that require training.

Also: How do you figure +4 in a Wildcard skill costs 42-48 points? Shouldn't it cost 16 points (4 levels in the skill at 4 points/level)? Or am I missing a rule somewhere (I don't use wildcard skills, so that's entirely possible)?

[JMason]

Originally Posted by Der Wanderer

Doesn't it always give +4 to a set of skills?

Abe (Level 4 / 170 CPs)
Weak IQ (-1 Level / -40CPs)
Wealthy (+1 Level / 30 CPs)
4 Wildcard skill @ +4 (4 Levels / ~180 CPs)

Bob (Level 4 / 195 CPs)
Agile DX (1 Level / 40 CPs)
Weak HT (-1 Level / -20 CPs)
Charismatic (1 Level / 40 CPs)
Wildcard skill @ +12 (3 Levels / 135 CPs)

One of us is completely wrong (or I'm completely misunderstanding you)???

There seems to be a bit of misunderstanding on the skill levels. Here is how it is written:

"...Apply -6 to base rolls for tasks that require training"
"...Each skill has four levels; each level gives +4 for its tasks."

So the Skill progression chart would look like this:

Level 0: Stat-6 [0]
Level 1: Stat-2 (-6+4) [6 CP]
Level 2: Stat+2 [48]
Level 3: Stat+6 [96]
Level 4: Stat+10 [144]

The per level cost works out to: 0, 6, 42, 48, 48.

This is why I have suggested (above) that the first level of a skill remove the -6 (or -5 if you use my other suggestions). Then, each level after that is a +4:

Level 0: Stat-6 [0]
Level 1: Stat+0 [24]
Level 2: Stat+4 [72]
Level 3: Stat+8 [120]
Level 4: Stat+12 [168]

And the per level cost are: 0, 24, 48, 48, 48.

So with the system as written, the player spends a potential 160 character points on a skill to get 144 CP value. My system allows the player to spend the 160 and get 168.

If you wanted to keep the skill costs as close to 40 per level as possible you would have a progression like this:

0: -6
1: +2 [48]
2: +5 [84]
3: +8 [120]
4: +12 [168]

But this might confuse new players who would find the numbers a bit arbitrary.

Edit: oops, math error corrected.

[Der Wanderer]

Originally Posted by JMason

Level 0: Stat-6 [0]
Level 1: Stat-2 (-6+4) [6 CP]
Level 2: Stat+2 [48]
Level 3: Stat+6 [96]
Level 4: Stat+10 [144]

Well, since it is put emphasis on tasks that require training, I assume that there are some that don't get penalized (e.g. running). Therefore I would count it more like a "Talent".
So I would use flat out: Wildcard skill +4/level [48 CPs/level]
The -6 does not come into play because its IMHO a task difficulty modifier. Anyway it probably does not compare well to a character built on CPs but I think this simplification is balanced if one compares GURPS UL characters.

[JMason]

Originally Posted by Der Wanderer

Well, since it is put emphasis on tasks that require training, I assume that there are some that don't get penalized (e.g. running). Therefore I would count it more like a "Talent".
So I would use flat out: Wildcard skill +4/level [48 CPs/level]
The -6 does not come into play because its IMHO a task difficulty modifier. Anyway it probably does not compare well to a character built on CPs but I think this simplification is balanced if one compares GURPS UL characters.

Well, I take the -6 to be a skill default usage since many hard and a few very hard skills default to stat-6. Also it states that the -6 comes in addition to the -10 to +10 that the GM may assign for task difficulty.

It also seems silly to have the player roll:

STAT - 6 + 8 (skill 2) - [task difficulty]

[cmdicely]

Originally Posted by Langy

You're forgetting the default -6 to all tasks that require training.

Also: How do you figure +4 in a Wildcard skill costs 42-48 points? Shouldn't it cost 16 points (4 levels in the skill at 4 points/level)? Or am I missing a rule somewhere (I don't use wildcard skills, so that's entirely possible)?

Wildcard skills (B175) cost 3× the cost of regular Very Hard skills, so top out at 12/level. Att-2 in a Wildcard skill is 6 points, Att-1 is 12 points, and each +1 is 12 points, so Att-2 to Att+2 is 42 points (36 points + 6 points) while each subsequent +4 is 48 points.

(Interestingly, if you simply double the bonus of the first level of skill in GUL, then, if GUL Skills are viewed as equivalent to GURPS wildcard skills, the equivalent GURPS cost works out to a flat 48 per GUL level.)

[Almafeta]

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty

[*]A Wildcard! skill at Att-2 [6] or +4 to a Wildcard! skill [42 or 48]

If you change the 'training required' penalty to -4 (the penalty for a default Easy skill), then a level in a skill would translate to a 24-point bang skill (with further levels being 48 points)... and you'd have the 'untrained' penalty on the same scale as a 'training' bonus, +/-4.

[JMason]

Originally Posted by Almafeta

If you change the 'training required' penalty to -4 (the penalty for a default Easy skill), then a level in a skill would translate to a 24-point bang skill (with further levels being 48 points)... and you'd have the 'untrained' penalty on the same scale as a 'training' bonus, +/-4.

Interesting option, if for no other reason that it makes thing much more simple. Another option (from TFT I think) is to make default roll 4d6. Of course this only adds an average of 3.5 to a roll, but may still work.

I created a quick character sheet for GUL, just to see what one might look like. I am not very good with layout, so it is vary basic. I am using a "dots" system for it, so let me know what y'all think about that. You can see it here:
http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dgpfkmkg_154hndfmfdh

[mib2932]

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty

(Well, one already has: Get rid of the "A 3 on the dice always succeeds" rule -- that's just goofy.)

GURPS B343: "Regardless of the score you are rolling against, a roll of 3 or 4 is always a success, while a roll of 17 or 18 is always a failure."