Fourth Age of Middle Earth gaming

[shawnhcorey]

Originally Posted by Spudzill

Hell, the whole History of Men was confusing as hell in The Silmarillion.

Don't try to figure out the real thing then. It'll make your brain hurt. ☺

Originally Posted by Spudzill

The fall of Numenor I thought was the end of the Second Age?

The Second Age ended when Sauron lost the Ring, in 3441 S.A. Númenor fell in 3319 S.A.

[Spudzill]

Originally Posted by shawnhcorey

This may help: Timeline of Arda.

Unfortunately, not as much as it should. The author keeps using the terms from the Silmarillion which means I have to keep hitting the Hyperlinks in order to not be hopelessly confused.

[Spudzill]

Originally Posted by shawnhcorey

Don't try to figure out the real thing then. It'll make your brain hurt. ☺



The Second Age ended when Sauron lost the Ring, in 3441 S.A. Númenor fell in 3319 S.A.

I blame Tolkien for making it deliberately confusing. Of course, much of the Silmarillion is boringly repetitive, and perhaps Tolkien was making it more like real epics of Antiquity and myths which have that same kind of quality. Also I think it was made to be inconsistant just like many real world myths. Or possibly a bit of an aftersight.

[Spudzill]

Originally Posted by shawnhcorey

Don't try to figure out the real thing then. It'll make your brain hurt. ☺



The Second Age ended when Sauron lost the Ring, in 3441 S.A. Númenor fell in 3319 S.A.

Also Why I rely on the people of this forum as many are smarter than I am. :)

[quarkstomper]

Originally Posted by Spudzill

I blame Tolkien for making it deliberately confusing. Of course, much of the Silmarillion is boringly repetitive, and perhaps Tolkien was making it more like real epics of Antiquity and myths which have that same kind of quality. Also I think it was made to be inconsistant just like many real world myths. Or possibly a bit of an aftersight.

Keep in mind that Tolkien never finished the Silmarillion, and part of the reason for that was he had trouble working out the inconsistancies himself. After his death his son Christopher took the unfinished bits and pieces he wrote about the First Age and tried to work them into something which more or less hangs together, sometimes writing material himself based on his father's notes.

But you are right that Tolkien was trying to create something like the sagas of old. His original intention was to create a "National Epic" for England, the way Virgil's Aeneid is the National Epic of the Founding of Rome, or Kalevala is the National Epic of Finland; but along the way the story became less about England and more about elves.

[Spudzill]

Originally Posted by quarkstomper

Keep in mind that Tolkien never finished the Silmarillion, and part of the reason for that was he had trouble working out the inconsistancies himself. After his death his son Christopher took the unfinished bits and pieces he wrote about the First Age and tried to work them into something which more or less hangs together, sometimes writing material himself based on his father's notes.

But you are right that Tolkien was trying to create something like the sagas of old. His original intention was to create a "National Epic" for England, the way Virgil's Aeneid is the National Epic of the Founding of Rome, or Kalevala is the National Epic of Finland; but along the way the story became less about England and more about elves.

I thought that particular National Epic was L'Morte d'Arthur.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Spudzill

I thought that particular National Epic was L'Morte d'Arthur.

The Morte d'Arthur doesn't qualify, because it's in prose; epics are in verse. (Tolkien's elvish mythology was largely written in verse originally.)

Also, Tolkien regarded the Matter of Britain as British (that is, Celtic) rather than English. Though he apparently thought about writing a long poem about the fall of Arthur. I have the impression that he also didn't like the "courtly love" material in the Arthurian stories; his stories celebrate monogamy, not adultery.

If there is an English national epic, it's probably Paradise Lost, though The Faerie Queene might be a contender.

Bill Stoddard

[Johnny1A.2]

Originally Posted by Spudzill

The fall of Numenor I thought was the end of the Second Age?

Not quite. The Second Age is considered to have ended when Sauron was defeated by the Last Alliance, a bit over a century later. When Isildur cut the Ring from Sauron's hand, the Third Age began.

[Johnny1A.2]

Originally Posted by whswhs

The Morte d'Arthur doesn't qualify, because it's in prose; epics are in verse. (Tolkien's elvish mythology was largely written in verse originally.)

Also, Tolkien regarded the Matter of Britain as British (that is, Celtic) rather than English. Though he apparently thought about writing a long poem about the fall of Arthur. I have the impression that he also didn't like the "courtly love" material in the Arthurian stories; his stories celebrate monogamy, not adultery.

If there is an English national epic, it's probably Paradise Lost, though The Faerie Queene might be a contender.

Bill Stoddard

Tolkien might well cite Beowulf as a contender for that title, though he would do so with some caveats.

The problem is that (among other things) first the Viking invasions and then the Norman Conquest wiped out a lot of Anglo-Saxon (English in the original sense) oral tradition, literature, and custom. For a couple of centuries after that, the aristocracy of England spoke French, French became a significant influence on English linguistically, and the older Anglo-Saxon culture was overlaid and intermixed with a Normal/French/Viking version.

That left England with a hole in its ancient legends. Heck, big parts of the Arthurian cycle owe as much to French influence as Celtic.

Tolkien was fascinated by the linguistic evidence of the common roots of most of the 'northern' myth-patterns and legends, for ex the various words used by the Germanic peoples for 'elf', and the role of dragons in those legends. Presumably the Anglo-Saxons had their versions of those common legends and stories...but we don't really know because those stories were lost.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2

Not quite. The Second Age is considered to have ended when Sauron was defeated by the Last Alliance, a bit over a century later. When Isildur cut the Ring from Sauron's hand, the Third Age began.

You know, looking at that, it seems an odd place to draw the line. Even in terms of Sauron's history, the Downfall is where he lost his outwardly attractive body and had to turn from charm to terror, which was a big turning point for him. And it was a point of total cosmic transformation; before it, mortal men could physically sail to Elvenhome and land on its shores, but after it, only elves could see the Straight Road, while mortal men saw a round world with a finite horizon. Surely a point of direct intervention by Eru ought to count as a major transition? I wonder why Tolkien chose otherwise.

Bill Stoddard