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Old 04-20-2014, 10:56 AM   #41
Cally
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Default Re: Judgment Adventure seed idea feedback requested.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robkelk View Post
What does the Malakim resonance show on a CD 6? This is one of the very few ways to reliably tell the difference between a Seraph and a Balseraph.
The Jumped Seraph very definitely is a Balseraph. Her potential is to be a very ruthless demon or a very selfless angel, and she's definitely on the lower side. She's only honorable in that she has the Seraph resonance and doesn't lie.
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Old 04-22-2014, 06:40 AM   #42
Omegonthesane
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Default Re: Judgment Adventure seed idea feedback requested.

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Originally Posted by Cally View Post
The evidence of the Jumped Seraph's trial will consist of several parts:

1. The results of Dominic's Superior-level multiple angelic resonances. (The Seraph resonance is useless, the Jumped Seraph won't speak at all.
Dominic's Vassal and Friend distinctions and the application of Celestial Charm to reduce her Will to 4 or lower say that she'll sing like a bird if she has any guilt whatsoever about any of her actions. Dominic possesses the abilities granted by all of Dominic's distinctions, and certainly knows the Celestial Song of Charm. Use of the Celestial Song of Charm does not cause soul hits so does not violate the Pax Dei - and I don't believe the Pax Dei applies to Balseraphs.
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Old 04-22-2014, 02:11 PM   #43
Cally
 
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Default Re: Judgment Adventure seed idea feedback requested.

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Originally Posted by Omegonthesane View Post
Dominic's Vassal and Friend distinctions and the application of Celestial Charm to reduce her Will to 4 or lower say that she'll sing like a bird if she has any guilt whatsoever about any of her actions. Dominic possesses the abilities granted by all of Dominic's distinctions, and certainly knows the Celestial Song of Charm. Use of the Celestial Song of Charm does not cause soul hits so does not violate the Pax Dei - and I don't believe the Pax Dei applies to Balseraphs.
Well this is true. We could debate whether Charm would apply here, since the Distinctions say "Targets with a Will of 1 and 2 or 3 and 4." And Charm's description states that Charm only affects rolls the target needs to make that use those characteristics, it doesn't reduce their Soul Hits or Mind Hits or Body Hits, for example. And the fact that the duration of celestial Charm is measured in combat rounds, not even minutes, so that's not a long time to confess much, but...

The Distinction only says 'compels the target to confess to their crime', not 'talk about their motivations and open their mind to the possibility of repenting'. The angels don't strictly need her confession: she is definitely guilty. And assuming the trap occurs as I wrote it did, they'll even know her motivations and why she chose to Jump. The only thing they need to figure out is who is more right in their estimation of punitive action.

Oh, I think I forgot to outline Mihr's argument exactly:

Mihr's argument for "imprison the Jumped Seraph until she's ready to attempt Redemption," will be based on the logic that her betrayal has occurred very quickly, within a period of a day (longer if the PCs take longer). Her betrayal was the result of a sudden impulsive decision that was made before she could consider the full scope of what she was doing. The Elohite resonance has not revealed any actions that could, presently, inspire her to face her crimes and repent, but that could very well change now that she is in prison and not conspiring with other demons and following the direct orders of a Prince. Mihr will acknowledge that if the Jumped Seraph's actions were a series of deliberate actions over time that reflected permanently warped behavior, then Soul Death would be called for. But the fact that this all occurred in so short a time span suggests the window for rehabilitation has not yet closed, and that is always preferable to outright Death.

Is what I had in mind. Basically "she did all this in less than a day, she could change her mind again."
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Old 04-22-2014, 02:17 PM   #44
robkelk
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Default Re: Judgment Adventure seed idea feedback requested.

Putting a plan into action without thinking it through shows a distinct lack of judgment. I doubt Dominic would be pleased - if the jumper was one of his Servitors, a discussion about changing Superiors might be in order if she's Redeemed.
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Rob Kelk
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Old 04-22-2014, 03:59 PM   #45
Omegonthesane
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Default Re: Judgment Adventure seed idea feedback requested.

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Originally Posted by Cally View Post
Well this is true. We could debate whether Charm would apply here, since the Distinctions say "Targets with a Will of 1 and 2 or 3 and 4." And Charm's description states that Charm only affects rolls the target needs to make that use those characteristics, it doesn't reduce their Soul Hits or Mind Hits or Body Hits, for example. And the fact that the duration of celestial Charm is measured in combat rounds, not even minutes, so that's not a long time to confess much, but...

The Distinction only says 'compels the target to confess to their crime', not 'talk about their motivations and open their mind to the possibility of repenting'. The angels don't strictly need her confession: she is definitely guilty. And assuming the trap occurs as I wrote it did, they'll even know her motivations and why she chose to Jump. The only thing they need to figure out is who is more right in their estimation of punitive action.
Still, a Seraph check 6 result on her confession is going to be useful.

Also, you've failed to consider the use of a set of level 6 Will Shackles plus the Celestial Song of Charm to force the Balseraph to speak more on the matter - though the fact that she was able to remain silent until they came out will be a huge black mark against her, I can't see how Dominic wouldn't have a set of level 6 Will Shackles for interrogating particularly reluctant prisoners. If all else fails, hire a Cherub of Janus to attune to her, making her their Servant and thus allowing them to make her speak.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cally View Post
Oh, I think I forgot to outline Mihr's argument exactly:

Mihr's argument for "imprison the Jumped Seraph until she's ready to attempt Redemption," will be based on the logic that her betrayal has occurred very quickly, within a period of a day (longer if the PCs take longer). Her betrayal was the result of a sudden impulsive decision that was made before she could consider the full scope of what she was doing. The Elohite resonance has not revealed any actions that could, presently, inspire her to face her crimes and repent, but that could very well change now that she is in prison and not conspiring with other demons and following the direct orders of a Prince. Mihr will acknowledge that if the Jumped Seraph's actions were a series of deliberate actions over time that reflected permanently warped behavior, then Soul Death would be called for. But the fact that this all occurred in so short a time span suggests the window for rehabilitation has not yet closed, and that is always preferable to outright Death.

Is what I had in mind. Basically "she did all this in less than a day, she could change her mind again."
How long is Mihr meant to have spent resonating the poor girl? Even with two lots of "what would target do if I did X" failing to get anything that even helps is not indicative of her chances of staying upstairs.
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Old 04-22-2014, 08:54 PM   #46
Cally
 
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Default Re: Judgment Adventure seed idea feedback requested.

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Originally Posted by Omegonthesane View Post
Also, you've failed to consider the use of a set of level 6 Will Shackles plus the Celestial Song of Charm to force the Balseraph to speak more on the matter - though the fact that she was able to remain silent until they came out will be a huge black mark against her, I can't see how Dominic wouldn't have a set of level 6 Will Shackles for interrogating particularly reluctant prisoners.
I don't have my copy of the Relics book in front of me. I thought Will Shackles just prevented an angel/demon from freely spending essence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omegonthesane View Post
If all else fails, hire a Cherub of Janus to attune to her, making her their Servant and thus allowing them to make her speak.
Clever! But, this assumes Dominic can just ask for Janus to send over a Cherub to help him, and that Dominic is okay with a random angel of another Word (one that he canonically views suspiciously) being involved. Furthermore, that Dominic would be all right with this Cherub being attuned to a demon. A demon who's imprisoned, but a demon nonetheless. The cherub would still need to protect her. Furthermore, the servant rules say the highest servant (level 6) is for a 7-force soldier or undead, this seems to preclude having a full-fledged angel or demon as a servant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omegonthesane View Post
How long is Mihr meant to have spent resonating the poor girl? Even with two lots of "what would target do if I did X" failing to get anything that even helps is not indicative of her chances of staying upstairs.
If the Jumped Seraph does successfully redeem, I imagine vessel-stripping/corporeal force stripping and a permanent ban from corporeal duty will be the first action taken.
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Old 04-23-2014, 12:12 AM   #47
Omegonthesane
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Default Re: Judgment Adventure seed idea feedback requested.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cally View Post
I don't have my copy of the Relics book in front of me. I thought Will Shackles just prevented an angel/demon from freely spending essence?
Quote:
Will Shackle
Whoever wears this relic effectively becomes the slave
of the item’s attuned owner – the victim must make a
Will roll at a penalty equal to the relic’s level to resist any
order or suggestion from the item’s owner.
If the subject
successfully resists, the owner may not repeat that command
for a number of hours equal to the check digit of
the Will roll. The level of the shackle also subtracts from
the wearer’s Will when resisting resonances, attunements
or Songs from the owner.
Bolding mine - italics in the original text.

"I command you to answer all questions in full with the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth."

If she resists that and absolutely must be questioned within the next 6 hours, "I command you to tell me <rephrasing of the intended question as a command>".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cally View Post
Clever! But, this assumes Dominic can just ask for Janus to send over a Cherub to help him, and that Dominic is okay with a random angel of another Word (one that he canonically views suspiciously) being involved. Furthermore, that Dominic would be all right with this Cherub being attuned to a demon. A demon who's imprisoned, but a demon nonetheless. The cherub would still need to protect her. Furthermore, the servant rules say the highest servant (level 6) is for a 7-force soldier or undead, this seems to preclude having a full-fledged angel or demon as a servant.
Quote:
MORE POWERFUL SERVANTS
No servants above Class 6 are listed. While it’s possible
for a full-fledged celestial, a powerful ethereal
spirit, or an experienced Saint to be a servant
, it’s very
rare. In almost all such cases, the being became a servant
before it evolved to its present state.
The highest level Servant that you're allowed to buy with character points is a 7-force Soldier or Undead. Nothing in the setting's metaphysics prevents you from having a Servant more powerful than that, in fact Liber Servitorum explicitly allows it to be a thing that exists in fluff and thus a thing that exists when Cherub of the Wind is abused. As a longer-term arrangement it's extremely rare, but so are Bright Lilim in canon.

Also, similar to my above suggestion that Eliites IST Judgment and/or individually in better standing than their Archangel, while it's a stretch to assume all or even most Cherubim of Janus can be called in for a case, it's practically certain that there exists a number of such Cherubim who can be trusted with the duty. (In before "that number is zero".)

Still needing to protect her is a concern, so have the Cherub blow his Essence on the Will roll to break the attunement. Alternately, for the duration of his assistance grant him the Cherub of Judgment attunement - she's a subject of inquiry so they won't have to protect her.

Last edited by Omegonthesane; 04-23-2014 at 12:17 AM.
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Old 04-23-2014, 02:09 AM   #48
Cally
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Default Re: Judgment Adventure seed idea feedback requested.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omegonthesane View Post
"I command you to answer all questions in full with the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth."
Huh! I guess I was thinking of something else. Neat, but keep in mind the Jumped Seraph is a Seraph-Balseraph of Fate... she's not going to be lying anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omegonthesane View Post
Still needing to protect her is a concern, so have the Cherub blow his Essence on the Will roll to break the attunement.
But what if a squad of Malakite-Balseraphs of Fate burst in to the room suddenly and grab her before anyone can react?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omegonthesane View Post
Alternately, for the duration of his assistance grant him the Cherub of Judgment attunement - she's a subject of inquiry so they won't have to protect her.
This is definitely one of those cases I think where it sounds like a really effective pairing of attunements/resonances, but there's no way you could justify it in terms of the story.
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Old 04-23-2014, 04:45 AM   #49
Omegonthesane
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Default Re: Judgment Adventure seed idea feedback requested.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cally View Post
Huh! I guess I was thinking of something else. Neat, but keep in mind the Jumped Seraph is a Seraph-Balseraph of Fate... she's not going to be lying anyway.
The clauses "the truth" and "the whole truth" are still useful though, as they deny her the ability to remain silent or fail to mention anything that she knows is relevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cally View Post
But what if a squad of Malakite-Balseraphs of Fate burst in to the room suddenly and grab her before anyone can react?
Then it becomes actually useful to have a Cherub attuned to her, so he can go protect her from the Ballakim of Fate.

(See above my feelings about the unlikelihood of roving squads of Ballakim of Fate.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cally View Post
This is definitely one of those cases I think where it sounds like a really effective pairing of attunements/resonances, but there's no way you could justify it in terms of the story.
Disagree on principle, but only with the degree of rarity - never say never. In this particular case I wouldn't think the Cherub would get to keep Cherub of Judgment following the trial.
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Old 04-23-2014, 05:01 PM   #50
Cally
 
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Default Re: Judgment Adventure seed idea feedback requested.

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Originally Posted by Omegonthesane View Post
The clauses "the truth" and "the whole truth" are still useful though, as they deny her the ability to remain silent or fail to mention anything that she knows is relevant.
Starts to depend on how much the GM says 'Full Truth' shows vs. an otherwise true statement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omegonthesane View Post
Then it becomes actually useful to have a Cherub attuned to her, so he can go protect her from the Ballakim of Fate.
And if they're intending to rescue/help her escape, and not harm her?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omegonthesane View Post
(See above my feelings about the unlikelihood of roving squads of Ballakim of Fate.)
As opposed to this super-Cherub, who would have both Wind and Judgment attunements, and a high enough cel-force rating to force the Jumped Seraph to do things? It was a neat idea, but it's not something I would personally introduce as a GM. And if a PC suggested it, I think it should earn their character some questioning on why they're trying to 'game the Symphony.'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omegonthesane View Post
Disagree on principle, but only with the degree of rarity - never say never. In this particular case I wouldn't think the Cherub would get to keep Cherub of Judgment following the trial.
That just makes it worse, really. An Archangel giving an angel of another Word their choir attunement is supposed to be a great public reward and a sign that the Archangel trusts the angel to use it to promote his Word, even if he's not a direct servitor. Not a convenience to be given and taken lightly.
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