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Old 09-22-2019, 04:11 AM   #1
awesomenessofme1
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Default Is "affected by Night Vision/Dark Vision" a valid limitation for Obscure (Vision)?

And if so, how much should it be worth? I'd think around -10%, but I'm not sure.
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Old 09-22-2019, 06:33 AM   #2
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: Is "affected by Night Vision/Dark Vision" a valid limitation for Obscure (Vision)

No, because it is automatically effected by such traits if it uses darknes and shadows unless it is Cosmic (distortion or glare would be vulnerable to other traits).
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Old 09-22-2019, 06:52 AM   #3
malloyd
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Default Re: Is "affected by Night Vision/Dark Vision" a valid limitation for Obscure (Vision)

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
No, because it is automatically effected by such traits if it uses darknes and shadows unless it is Cosmic (distortion or glare would be vulnerable to other traits).
I'm not sure that makes sense. If it "uses darkness and shadows" in a way countered automatically by Night Vision then isn't it also logically countered by light sources? Doesn't work in sunlight or well lit rooms seems like a pretty substantial limitation....

I'd be willing to allow countered by light intensification (including night vision) as a mundane countermeasure for the usual -10%. *Just* advantages I'd be skeptical of, there needs to be some sort of option that people without them can use for the mundane countermeasure limitation. And Dark Vision is iffy because Obscure by definition works only on one sense, and however Dark "Vision" works it's is only related to visible light senses because somebody opted to use the word in the name not because it shares any physical relationship. I'd tend to agree there that it should always automatically ignore Obscure (Vision), but I can see why somebody might rule the other way.
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Old 09-22-2019, 09:09 AM   #4
Anaraxes
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Default Re: Is "affected by Night Vision/Dark Vision" a valid limitation for Obscure (Vision)

This is one of those cases where "buy the effects, not the name" is a handy maxim to keep in mind. Lots of times concepts will reach for Obscure for something described as "darkness" or "shadows", because those descriptions are cool and edgy and thematic. But those powers do their job perfectly well in lit rooms. So the effect isn't just routine darkness.

If Obscure were just perfectly mundane darkness, just like night or being inside or underground, then I'd also allow a significant limitation. You could call it "technological countermeasures" (whether that's fire or electricy). But that countermeasure is not just common, but ubiquitos, and every human on the planet is trained in its use (at multiple TLs if the setting has enough TL to matter -- ask anyone that lives in hurricane country whether they have candles). And we wire every room with electricity and handy switches for no other purpose than to banish darkness for our primary sense, or hang gas lamps or torch scones down every hallway. Summoning light is our first reflex when we walk into a room.

So in practice, a Limitation that makes anti-visual-Obscure being as simple as Night Vision or Dark Vision or a flashlight seems to me like a good bit more than the baseline -5% in a Power Modifier for the mere existence of tech. The OP's -10% might even be a bit light, maybe 20% (or more), just because that tech is so readily present and reflexive in use.

If anti-visual-Obscure is that easy as the baseline, then that seems to imply that every form of Obscure ought to be equally easy to defeat, because they all have the same price. Then you'll need a Very Common / Common / Rare type hierarchy for mods for both ease of availability of countermeasures, as well as frequency of encountering that sense in the first place. (Vision is universal; infravision less so, unless you're doing D&D or modern military games; radar pretty scarce outside of military applications -- so if we're really digging into situational pricing, all those Obscures shouldn't have the same base price.)
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Old 09-22-2019, 11:35 AM   #5
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: Is "affected by Night Vision/Dark Vision" a valid limitation for Obscure (Vision)

I feel default Obscure is smoke/fog for vision, white noise for hearing, a strong scent for smelling, etc. Such would obscure whatever was located within it (or behind it) while leaving the effect obvious to the affected sense, even from a distance (the default without Stealthy). Turning Obscure into “darkness” allows light sources and night vision to offset it, and dark vision* to ignore it, which is clearly worth a Limitation - -20% does indeed sound fair (-10% assumes relatively rare and specialized countermeasures). Note this means the Obscure only applies against ambient lighting/sunlight, but point sources reduce the effect to be the better of ambient-minus-Obscure and how the light source would work in pitch darkness. For a hierarchy of rarity, keeping in mind -10% is IIRC -5% for (rare) technological countermeasures, -5% for Advantage countermeasures, I’d say -5% for rare, -10% for occasional, -15% for common, and optionally -20% for very common (optionally because some GURPS rules lump common and very common together). Add -5% on top to account for negating Powers.

More intense darkness that robs light sources of their light would lack the above Limitation, but would still get a -5% if night/dark vision works against it. Going the opposite route of Obscure being a bright light is arguably an Enhancement, as it could make things easier to see in pitch darkness, but I’m not certain how you should handle that.

*Dark Vision seems to mechanically be “You can see without light,” and nothing more. It shouldn’t work against normal Obscure, just as it doesn’t work against smoke grenades. It should probably be classified (if it isn’t already) as a Supernatural Advantage, as any realistic explanation for it is better served with other traits (Infravision, Hearing with Precise, etc). Dark Vision should modify all forms of sight - if you’re in a room lit only by artificial lights that don’t produce UV, there’s an obscuring smoke that only works in the visible light spectrum, and you have both Ultravision and Dark Vision, you’ll be able to see just fine (albeit without color IIRC) - the smoke can be seen through thanks to Ultravision, which is in turn usable despite the lack of UV because you have Dark Vision.
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Old 09-22-2019, 11:40 AM   #6
awesomenessofme1
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Default Re: Is "affected by Night Vision/Dark Vision" a valid limitation for Obscure (Vision)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
This is one of those cases where "buy the effects, not the name" is a handy maxim to keep in mind. Lots of times concepts will reach for Obscure for something described as "darkness" or "shadows", because those descriptions are cool and edgy and thematic. But those powers do their job perfectly well in lit rooms. So the effect isn't just routine darkness.

If Obscure were just perfectly mundane darkness, just like night or being inside or underground, then I'd also allow a significant limitation. You could call it "technological countermeasures" (whether that's fire or electricy). But that countermeasure is not just common, but ubiquitos, and every human on the planet is trained in its use (at multiple TLs if the setting has enough TL to matter -- ask anyone that lives in hurricane country whether they have candles). And we wire every room with electricity and handy switches for no other purpose than to banish darkness for our primary sense, or hang gas lamps or torch scones down every hallway. Summoning light is our first reflex when we walk into a room.

So in practice, a Limitation that makes anti-visual-Obscure being as simple as Night Vision or Dark Vision or a flashlight seems to me like a good bit more than the baseline -5% in a Power Modifier for the mere existence of tech. The OP's -10% might even be a bit light, maybe 20% (or more), just because that tech is so readily present and reflexive in use.

If anti-visual-Obscure is that easy as the baseline, then that seems to imply that every form of Obscure ought to be equally easy to defeat, because they all have the same price. Then you'll need a Very Common / Common / Rare type hierarchy for mods for both ease of availability of countermeasures, as well as frequency of encountering that sense in the first place. (Vision is universal; infravision less so, unless you're doing D&D or modern military games; radar pretty scarce outside of military applications -- so if we're really digging into situational pricing, all those Obscures shouldn't have the same base price.)
What do you think it would be worth if Night Vision, Dark Vision, and other advantages that let you mitigate or remove darkness penalties worked as a countermeasure, but mundane light sources didn't? It's meant to represent a darkness-based superpower. It already has a power modifier, but that represents anti-super countermeasures, so I don't think it's redundant. I think it would probably be either -5% or -10%.
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