Swiss army pole-arm and Cheat!

Humorme · 12-22-2008, 09:36 PM

Okay, MM is probably gonna bonk me over the head for this, but here goes:

I searched the forums and the limitted FAQ for the answer, but didn't turn up anything useful.

A friend of mine got me MQ Saturday for xmas and it was freakin' awesome!
That being said, I played it again with one friend last night. We came up on the situation where he cheated to use the Swiss army pole-arm. I don't have the cards in front of me since I'm at work, but here's what I recall.

Cheat: Use this card to remove all restrictions of use and gain the maximum bonus of the card. I also remember it saying something about removing all disadvantages. I really wish I had it in front of me now, because that wording practically decided my ruling.

The Swiss army pole arm is a +4, but "is too cumbersome to use to fight tiny monsters." My qote probably isn't exact, but it's very close. It also grants bonus dice for fighting huge monsters.

My friend went up against a tiny creature while cheating to use the swiss army polearm. My ultimate ruling was:

"You keep the +4 bonus because 'being too cumbersome to fight tiny creatures' is clearly a disadvantage and the cheat removes disadvantages. You do not; however, gain the dice bonuses because the polearm only grants bonuses against huge monsters. That IS it's max bonus. It is not a disadvantage to NOT get extra dice against tiny monsters. You can gain the weapon's max bonus as stated by the cheat, but cheating does not allow you to essentially improve the weapon."

I feel very strongly that I made the right ruling and we both agreed that it was a good ruling, right or wrong. Thing is, I'd like to be certain and I'm not as certain about the ruling for receiving the +4 bonus vs tiny creatures. This comes down to semantics vs logic. The polearm was clearly deemed to be unusable against tiny creatures because of its inherent bulkiness. It could be argued that its maximum bonus (the +4 and not the dice bonus) is against everything but tiny creatures because that is the nature of the weapon and that particular disadvantage is not a restriction due to the character's level/race/class/etc. However, to paraphrase the cheat card, cheating removes all disadvantages of a weapon and so the encumberance of the polearm is a disadvantage and thus negated by the cheat card.

I think I wrote a book.

rek075 · 12-22-2008, 10:16 PM

The Cheat card allows you to ignore restrictions, not disadvantages. In context of the rule book, the restrictions it describes relate to the slot it uses and the class/race/sex restrictions. At least this is my interpretation of it.

Schroeder · 12-24-2008, 10:44 AM

I concur. It was my interpretation of the card that it was used to ignore prerequisites for wielding it more so than the specifics of its use.

O'Keefe · 01-06-2009, 12:17 PM

The last line in the main paragraph sums it up nicely...

"You get all its advantages and none of its disadvantages."

So you got it right. Somone who is cheating with the Polearm does get the +4 bonus, even when fighting a tiny monster.

Quaff_fu · 01-06-2009, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by O'Keefe

The last line in the main paragraph sums it up nicely...

"You get all its advantages and none of its disadvantages."

So you got it right. Somone who is cheating with the Polearm does get the +4 bonus, even when fighting a tiny monster.

Well, this is different then the card game.

Pat

alexonfyre · 01-07-2009, 12:38 AM

Sounds like you even get the extra die, since you get ALL of the advantages. Besides, it IS the CHEAT card, if there is any question, I give it the benefit of the doubt.
(i.e. the advantage of some cards to give +3 to some and +5 to, say Elves, is something that Cheat can do, so I personally consider all advantageous conditions to always be true for it and all disadvantageous ones to always be false. So, if you were in my house, all monsters you fought with a Cheated SAP would never be Tiny and always be Huge. [Solely for the purposes of the cheated card, but not for any other card that uses those conditions.])

ArcadianRefugee · 01-07-2009, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaff_fu

Well, this is different then the card game.

Yeah. In Munchkin, if an item is +2, +53 for Elves, and a Dwarf Cheat!s it, he only gets the +2, not the +5. In MQ, he WOULD get the +5.

Cheat! is far more cheat-y in MQ.

Quaff_fu · 01-07-2009, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArcadianRefugee

Yeah. In Munchkin, if an item is +2, +53 for Elves, and a Dwarf Cheat!s it, he only gets the +2, not the +5. In MQ, he WOULD get the +5.

Cheat! is far more cheat-y in MQ.

I Would take the +53 over +5 any day.

Pat

Humorme · 01-15-2009, 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexonfyre

Sounds like you even get the extra die, since you get ALL of the advantages. Besides, it IS the CHEAT card, if there is any question, I give it the benefit of the doubt.
(i.e. the advantage of some cards to give +3 to some and +5 to, say Elves, is something that Cheat can do, so I personally consider all advantageous conditions to always be true for it and all disadvantageous ones to always be false. So, if you were in my house, all monsters you fought with a Cheated SAP would never be Tiny and always be Huge. [Solely for the purposes of the cheated card, but not for any other card that uses those conditions.])

I had to rule no on that. The reason is that it grants an extra die ONLY against huge creatures. As I first stated, getting the extra die on tiny creatures is NOT part of its maximum advantage. It's MAXIMUM advantage is only against huge creatures. Remember, cheats remove restrictions and disadvantages, but do not add advantages to a card. That's my reasoning anyway. The problem with the ruling is that you can argue semantics in favor of either ruling.

Progmode · 02-02-2009, 08:43 AM

I had a couple similar situations come up over the weekend during my MQ/MQ2 demos.

First, an item in MQ2 called Torch is a +1 item that gives an extra +8 if you're in the Big Room or the Dark Room if I recall correctly. I allowed this to be Cheated for the total +9, and I'm sure that is correct.

Second, I had someone complain about the Bane Rings for colors that aren't being played. Then they asked if they could Cheat one to get the two extra dice in every combat. To keep things moving, I didn't allow it at the time, but I'm not sure what the correct interpretation should be. The statement on Cheat that they get the bonus when they wouldn't normally be entitled to and that they get all the advantages has me a bit perplexed.

Any official input on how extra dice bonuses are affected by Cheat?

12-22-2008, 09:36 PM	#1
Humorme Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: south carolina, US of A	Swiss army pole-arm and Cheat! Okay, MM is probably gonna bonk me over the head for this, but here goes: I searched the forums and the limitted FAQ for the answer, but didn't turn up anything useful. A friend of mine got me MQ Saturday for xmas and it was freakin' awesome! That being said, I played it again with one friend last night. We came up on the situation where he cheated to use the Swiss army pole-arm. I don't have the cards in front of me since I'm at work, but here's what I recall. Cheat: Use this card to remove all restrictions of use and gain the maximum bonus of the card. I also remember it saying something about removing all disadvantages. I really wish I had it in front of me now, because that wording practically decided my ruling. The Swiss army pole arm is a +4, but "is too cumbersome to use to fight tiny monsters." My qote probably isn't exact, but it's very close. It also grants bonus dice for fighting huge monsters. My friend went up against a tiny creature while cheating to use the swiss army polearm. My ultimate ruling was: "You keep the +4 bonus because 'being too cumbersome to fight tiny creatures' is clearly a disadvantage and the cheat removes disadvantages. You do not; however, gain the dice bonuses because the polearm only grants bonuses against huge monsters. That IS it's max bonus. It is not a disadvantage to NOT get extra dice against tiny monsters. You can gain the weapon's max bonus as stated by the cheat, but cheating does not allow you to essentially improve the weapon." I feel very strongly that I made the right ruling and we both agreed that it was a good ruling, right or wrong. Thing is, I'd like to be certain and I'm not as certain about the ruling for receiving the +4 bonus vs tiny creatures. This comes down to semantics vs logic. The polearm was clearly deemed to be unusable against tiny creatures because of its inherent bulkiness. It could be argued that its maximum bonus (the +4 and not the dice bonus) is against everything but tiny creatures because that is the nature of the weapon and that particular disadvantage is not a restriction due to the character's level/race/class/etc. However, to paraphrase the cheat card, cheating removes all disadvantages of a weapon and so the encumberance of the polearm is a disadvantage and thus negated by the cheat card. I think I wrote a book. __________________ "You lied to her, Danny?" "I'm also over here killing people, Ru, but that doesn't make me a bad person, does it?"

12-22-2008, 10:16 PM	#2
rek075 Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Edmonton, AB, Canada	Re: Swiss army pole-arm and Cheat! The Cheat card allows you to ignore restrictions, not disadvantages. In context of the rule book, the restrictions it describes relate to the slot it uses and the class/race/sex restrictions. At least this is my interpretation of it.

12-24-2008, 10:44 AM	#3
Schroeder Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Toronto, ON, Canada	Re: Swiss army pole-arm and Cheat! I concur. It was my interpretation of the card that it was used to ignore prerequisites for wielding it more so than the specifics of its use.

01-06-2009, 12:17 PM	#4
O'Keefe Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Austin, Texas	Re: Swiss army pole-arm and Cheat! The last line in the main paragraph sums it up nicely... "You get all its advantages and none of its disadvantages." So you got it right. Somone who is cheating with the Polearm does get the +4 bonus, even when fighting a tiny monster. __________________ Will Schoonover Assistant Developer...among other things Steve Jackson Games will@sjgames.com

01-07-2009, 12:38 AM	#6
alexonfyre Join Date: Jan 2009	Re: Swiss army pole-arm and Cheat! Sounds like you even get the extra die, since you get ALL of the advantages. Besides, it IS the CHEAT card, if there is any question, I give it the benefit of the doubt. (i.e. the advantage of some cards to give +3 to some and +5 to, say Elves, is something that Cheat can do, so I personally consider all advantageous conditions to always be true for it and all disadvantageous ones to always be false. So, if you were in my house, all monsters you fought with a Cheated SAP would never be Tiny and always be Huge. [Solely for the purposes of the cheated card, but not for any other card that uses those conditions.]) Last edited by alexonfyre; 01-07-2009 at 12:42 AM.

02-02-2009, 08:43 AM	#10
Progmode MIB Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Grand Rapids, Mi	Re: Swiss army pole-arm and Cheat! I had a couple similar situations come up over the weekend during my MQ/MQ2 demos. First, an item in MQ2 called Torch is a +1 item that gives an extra +8 if you're in the Big Room or the Dark Room if I recall correctly. I allowed this to be Cheated for the total +9, and I'm sure that is correct. Second, I had someone complain about the Bane Rings for colors that aren't being played. Then they asked if they could Cheat one to get the two extra dice in every combat. To keep things moving, I didn't allow it at the time, but I'm not sure what the correct interpretation should be. The statement on Cheat that they get the bonus when they wouldn't normally be entitled to and that they get all the advantages has me a bit perplexed. Any official input on how extra dice bonuses are affected by Cheat? __________________ "Someone is, or is thinking about, talking to someone else about possibly doing something sometime in the future." - MunchkinMan Last edited by Progmode; 02-02-2009 at 08:52 AM.