Why does UT concealable armor suck?

[blacksmith]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

If you want to know what soldiers wear, look at Tacsuits. They're strong enough to at least reduce most bullet damage and completely absorb all grenade fragmentation. They won't save you from a sniper, but modern armor won't do that either.

The armor you're looking at is civvy armor.

I was looking for armor rated as concealable. The vest I cited from HT is rated as concealable and the ones that only look like clothes are the only ones rated as concealable in UT.

Listen to yourself. "With an APEP..." Do you know what those cost? Seriously? You think people just hand those out? You think players can afford to?

And you can't put it on Gauss weapons because they are already built like it. Odd that the ammo built like this super expensive ammor is so cheap. Why are two very similar bullets so different in cost?

In fact, two characters with skill 10 firing in a white room using only their accuracy as a bonus, the Storm Carbine will hit an average of twice, while the Gauss Rifle will hit an average of 4 times. This is not inconsequential.

IT can be, all depends on if the Gauss rifle can actualy get by the armor being worn with its lower damage.

But lets look at ammo costs. A full clip of ETC Storm Carbine Ammo (disregarding the power cell cost) is $40. A full clip of APEP ammo is $400. Four hundred.

ANd this is kind of dumb given that the gauss rifle can not have that kind of ammo because it already fires it. So you have some unrealistic costs added to one side of the equation and removed from the other for no reason I can see other than to make it "Balanced".

So why do such similar penetrators cost so much in a ETC or liquid propellant gun(in the LP gun you really only have the bullet by itself too, just like the gauss weapon)? Got an explanation for that?

Kick up production of the APEP rounds to reduce cost, and realistically price gauss rounds and it wouldn't be that much difference.

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by blacksmith

And you can't put it on Gauss weapons because they are already built like it. Odd that the ammo built like this super expensive ammor is so cheap. Why are two very similar bullets so different in cost?

Because Gauss rifles use a completely different technology than cartridge-fired weapons.

IT can be, all depends on if the Gauss rifle can actualy get by the armor being worn with its lower damage.

Not really a problem with an Armor Divisor of (3).

ANd this is kind of dumb given that the gauss rifle can not have that kind of ammo because it already fires it. So you have some unrealistic costs added to one side of the equation and removed from the other for no reason I can see other than to make it "Balanced".

I don't really think that's the case here. If this were about balance, lasers wouldn't suck, and ETK wouldn't rule the roost.

Kick up production of the APEP rounds to reduce cost, and realistically price gauss rounds and it wouldn't be that much difference.

I think you're just making up stuff now.

[Langy]

So why do such similar penetrators cost so much in a ETC or liquid propellant gun(in the LP gun you really only have the bullet by itself too, just like the gauss weapon)? Got an explanation for that?

APEP rounds for ETC and liquid propellant guns are much more complex than rounds with similar performance for gauss weaponry. Gauss rounds are pretty simple - just hunks of metal with a ferrous core in the correct shape. Conventional ammunition requires things like propellant, a sabot, etc.

Just because they're similar in performance does not mean they're actually all that similar in design.

[blacksmith]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

Because Gauss rifles use a completely different technology than cartridge-fired weapons.

Not really. See the point about how they fire a round that is very similar. So how can it be similar and entirely different? The cost differential isn't in the propellant it is in the bullet. But the bullet fired is almost identical to the bullet fired from a gauss weapon.

I don't really think that's the case here. If this were about balance, lasers wouldn't suck, and ETK wouldn't rule the roost.

ANd if it was about being logically consistent a clip for the gauss rifle should be at least $350 of the APEP is $400.

???

Mass production, see Henry Ford for details.

[blacksmith]

Originally Posted by Langy

APEP rounds for ETC and liquid propellant guns are much more complex than rounds with similar performance for gauss weaponry. Gauss rounds are pretty simple - just hunks of metal with a ferrous core in the correct shape. Conventional ammunition requires things like propellant, a sabot, etc.

Just because they're similar in performance does not mean they're actually all that similar in design.

Except that the notation is that they are similar in design. And there are plenty of ways you don't even need a ferrous core. So why not use the amorphous tungsten for its superior properties and get even better armor penetration?

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by blacksmith

Not really. See the point about how they fire a round that is very similar. So how can it be similar and entirely different? The cost differential isn't in the propellant it is in the bullet. But the bullet fired is almost identical to the bullet fired from a gauss weapon.

ANd if it was about being logically consistent a clip for the gauss rifle should be at least $350 of the APEP is $400.

Mass production, see Henry Ford for details.

So basically, you're saying that they did it all wrong and that they should have given Gauss weapons more damage because... they're higher TL, and that this whole "gauss weapons are basically APEP for free" nonsense needs to go because it's "totally unrealistic."

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Langy

Also, the 'Advanced Body Armor' is specifically mentioned as being based on a real-life set of armor, 'Pinnacle Armor's SOV', which is more commonly known as 'Dragon Skin'.

Which probably doesn't actually work and even if it does breaks down very quickly under actual use. It currently lacks a NIJ certification, is banned by the US Army, strongly discouraged by the USMC and the Air Force is suing Pinnacle.

[AmesJainchill]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Which probably doesn't actually work and even if it does breaks down very quickly under actual use. It currently lacks a NIJ certification, is banned by the US Army, strongly discouraged by the USMC and the Air Force is suing Pinnacle.

...Hmmm. Good points...

[chandley]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Which probably doesn't actually work and even if it does breaks down very quickly under actual use. It currently lacks a NIJ certification, is banned by the US Army, strongly discouraged by the USMC and the Air Force is suing Pinnacle.

Ignoring the wearying debate inherit in that pack of statements, the armor was converted to Gurps at basically face value. Its _based_ on the much maligned Pinnacle product, but need not represent it. It would likely also suit for other near future flexible suits, and would be an excellent example of Scale armor built out of Spectra and titanium alloy (a la p.65 High Tech Low Tech side bar). But, disallow it if the concept rankles. Or push it to TL 9. We DO seem to be pushing the edge of a couple of things in Ultra Tech while still nominally in TL 8....

If you actually look at these vest/jackets, they are remarkably thin. You could easily wear it under a heavy jacket (lord! the heat...) and get away with it... though you might bunch up in weird places. Still, thats what the hold out penalty is for.

The TL 9 version of this would be the Heavy Clamshell in a similar format. DR 45/5, Flexible, same foot notes. Same weight and cost as the Clamshell. +10 DR for 1 lb of weight is pretty decent for +1 TL. Use the tailoring armor rules to make it a heavy coat with DR 67/5 and 27 lbs.

Chandley

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by chandley

The TL 9 version of this would be the Heavy Clamshell in a similar format. DR 45/5, Flexible, same foot notes. Same weight and cost as the Clamshell. +10 DR for 1 lb of weight is pretty decent for +1 TL. Use the tailoring armor rules to make it a heavy coat with DR 67/5 and 27 lbs.

Uh, what? Clamshells are breast and back plate armor, not flexible, not split DR, and not tailorable. The 18/6 listed above is the heavyweight version of reflex, which looks like either body armor or heavy outerwear. Other than the trauma plates you can add with a tacvest, you can't do much better with flexible armor. A sealed tacsuit only goes up to 20/10.