Bruce Lee

[aesir23]

Re: Ammocase

I've encountered many people, particularly Wing Chun purists (I studied wing chun myself for a few years), who are down on Bruce. I think that this is largely because he did not believe in many of the myths that are present in traditional wing chun (such as the ability to generate real power with only your triceps). Muy Yat is particularly well known to hold this belief, and I think that that does make you biased.

I would just say, with respect, that your opinion is valid, but it is not in the majority and does not have the weight of the evidence behind it (as anecdotal as that evidence is.)

Regarding his form: His punching form, with it's dramatic hip turns, borrows as much from Bajiquan (of which I am a student) as from Boxing, and is partially a response to his belief that wing chun lacked power.

[jacobmuller]

Originally Posted by archypetro

it says on wikipedia that he could (when he was 24) bicep curl 70-80lbs For me, this would also indicate that he'd not relaly have an issue lifting the weight above his head... looking at the GURPS basic lift table that would put his ST (or at least lifting ST) at about 18... would it not?

Was that dumb-bell or bar? I don't think I'd rate him a ST18. I'd prefer to go by weight and then add Striking ST.

[Lord Carnifex]

I think there's enough room around here for multiple versions of Bruce Lee. Any given version could try and create the historical figure, or the legendary, semi-mythic one. Heck, a case could be made for the need for multiple versions at various points in his life.

Having studied Jun Fan fourth hand (learning from sifu Nelson, who learned from sifu Inosanto, who learned from sifu Lee), I can tell you that it is not simply Wing Chun or even modified Wing Chun. Sure, one can debate how whether or not sifu Lee had actually mastered the Kali, Silat, Fencing, Boxing and other arts he studied (note that many of these don't have any sort of formal ranking system), but they all definitively show up in Jun Fan.

In fact, that's part of the point of the whole Jeet Kune Do concept: that one develops the fundamentals of physical fitness and physical movement; then one can begin to learn actual fighting techniques. Learning additional fighting styles in JKD doesn't mean starting over from scratch each time; it's an integration of new ideas and techniques with what one already knows - covered perfectly in GURPS by the Technique Adaptation perk, a staple of JKD.

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by archypetro

but.. it says on wikipedia that he could (when he was 24) bicep curl 70-80lbs
For me, this would also indicate that he'd not relaly have an issue lifting the weight above his head... looking at the GURPS basic lift table that would put his
ST (or at least lifting ST) at about 18... would it not?

When trying to determine people's ST by how much they can lift, it's important to take into consideration that both Extra Effort and Lifting Skill are at work in these cases. I think I probably underestimated Bruce's Lifting skill in my first write up, based on all the feedback i've gotten reminding me off how strong he was.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by jacobmuller

Was that dumb-bell or bar? I don't think I'd rate him a ST18. I'd prefer to go by weight and then add Striking ST.

You can do what you like, but officially Gurps ST is fundamentally about lifting or carrying weight. BL is figured from ST and is all about how much weight you can lift.

While there is the Build Table with suggestions about "normal" combinations of HT and WT for persons of certain STs this is optional and without weight (pardon the pun) in the game system. You're really not supposed to reverse-engineer ST from size.

This doesn't mean that Bruce Lee had ST 18. There is Lifting Skill and Extra Effort and Lee was the sort of person who might have been using Extra Effort a _lot_.

With just "normal" Lifting Skill of 20 you can boost your BL by 50% on average. With Extra Effort you can make a Will-based Lifting roll at that level and _double_ BL. That takes you back down to ST 13 to 14. You can do it for an entire minute for only 1 FP too.

This is one of the reasons I reject efforts to normalize his HT downward. It's not like he was subjecting himself to normal stresses. One of the things that makes Batman a comic book character is that he trains like Lee and doesn't burn out.

Also, officially, Striking ST can not be bought by "normal" humans without special GM permission or the Special Exercises Perk (and then only in limited amounts). Bio-tech makes it a Species Modification too. Having Lee be a relatively normal person who just happened to have 5 levels of Striking ST would be eccentric.

[Stupid Jedi]

Bruce would bicep curl 70-80 lbs for three sets of 8 reps. Using a max-rep calculator, that is a max rep of 100 lbs. Maximum one-armed lift is BLx2, so Bruce's BL should be around 50 lbs, which is closest to ST 16. I would then add 2 levels of Striking ST.

IMO, using weight-lifting stats is an excellent way to calculate ST. What other objective measure is better? Also, since Bruce was into developing lean functional ST (to generate power), as opposed to bulk for lifting, he wouldn't have trained the Lifting skill, so it can be ruled out as a contributor to this ST calculation. He was interested in power, not lifting capacity. IMO, Extra Effort shouldn't be considered either when using Bruce's weight training statistics because you don't use Extra Effort to do three sets of 8 reps.

In regards to his HT, Bruce would do physical conditioning for 2-3 hours per day and then train martial arts techniques for another 2-3 hours. He was also very strict about his nutrition and diet. These facts would lend me to think that his HT, a measure of "grit" should be quite high. HT 13-14. I would also add Very Fit to this.

Bruce's Boxing, Karate and Judo skill levels are much harder to determine objectively, but the testimonies of many great fighter who thought Bruce was one of the best fighters in the world shouldn't be discounted out of hand. Bas Rutten doesn't think Bruce would last long in an MMA tournament because his ground fighting and grappling skills were not well developed. This is probably true, since the martial arts world has really changed a lot since Bruce's death. But, Bas was quick to add that Bruce was a very fast learner and would quickly adopt any techniques that made him a better fighter.

Obviously, some people inflate his abilities. The real answer is: what kind of world is the GURPS character of Bruce Lee in? In a gritty realistic world, his fighting skills might be in the 18-20 range. In a cinematic world, they could easily be in the 20-25 range. I lean towards the mythical Bruce Lee with Boxing-20, Karate-25, Judo-20.

[ammocase]

Originally Posted by aesir23

Re: Ammocase

I've encountered many people, particularly Wing Chun purists (I studied wing chun myself for a few years), who are down on Bruce. I think that this is largely because he did not believe in many of the myths that are present in traditional wing chun (such as the ability to generate real power with only your triceps). Muy Yat is particularly well known to hold this belief, and I think that that does make you biased.

I would just say, with respect, that your opinion is valid, but it is not in the majority and does not have the weight of the evidence behind it (as anecdotal as that evidence is.)

Regarding his form: His punching form, with it's dramatic hip turns, borrows as much from Bajiquan (of which I am a student) as from Boxing, and is partially a response to his belief that wing chun lacked power.

I couldnt stay in Moy Yat Ving Tsun for more then a month, I eventually left that style for a more combat applicable hung ga and san da style that shared the same space with them on different days. I listed my style, with the majority being kickboxing, I am not even close to being a Wing Chun purist. My time under Moy Yat was not something enjoyable, but they never critized lee once when i was there.

As for the form, I am not referring to wing chun. His attempt at a boxing form is whats off. Hes pulling with his shoulders, its bad in both wing chun and boxing. And his kicks were off, especially the heek kick, which is understandable since wing chun, his base art, doesnt perform high kicks (kicks were learned from shotokan, john rhee, and joe lewis, and other artists and styles), but to say hes the best martial artists, or to give him high points, I wouldnt go so far.

And my stance on Bruce is the majority, especially if they arent bruce lee fans. Last year I would be debating other posters, in support of Lee, but its from those debates that made me look into more about Lee besides what the JKD family are saying.

I love Jeet Kune Do, so i have no bias on style, and once I get my black belt in kyokushin I might go for Jeet Kune Do concepts under the Inasanto line. Until then I still have my bruce lee fighting method collection, and the tao of jeet kune do books.

As for the wikepedia links, those are all rumours and half truths from the JKD line of students and friends. Many have tried to find the validation of these fights, but have come short. So I tend to stick with that many things cant be proven, and that the pro-fighters he did fight claim where they said bruce lee was not a fighter, most of his legend is rumours, but that he was a great teacher and philosopher, from karate legend and kickboxing legend lee friend and student Joe Lewis.

I am still somewhat a Bruce Lee fan. I dont consider myself a purist in MA, and I dont tend to stick to tradition for too long. I have a long list of arts I want to mix and match, and most of that inspiration came from Lee, regardless of the Bios i have read. Hes still plastered on my wall, and every social website I'm attached to. But it doesnt change some of the facts. For example, bruce became an advocator of breaking tradition, and mixing styles, yet his student, karate/boxing legend joe lewis and mike stone, have been mixing karate and boxing for years before him, they were years ahead of him. Judo Gene Lebell, who met bruce lee and had 2 training sessions, he mixed judo with greco roman wrestling. These were the original pioneers, and fighters, they shared what they knew with lee, they just werent on the big screen to reach the mass audience lee reached after his death.

[ammocase]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

I don't think so. Basically, any highly skilled martial artist is going to be worth a ton of points, because beating the hell out of people with your fists is worth alot of points in GURPS. Bruce Lee would make a fantastically useful adventurer. I can point to other legendary, real-life figures, like Robert Leroy Johnson, Elvis Presley or Einstein, but being a fantastic musician or physicist isn't worth nearly as many point because it doesn't save the day during a typical adventure nearly as often as kicking high.

Elvis had a black belt in American Kenpo, he was an avid martial artists. I think he would get some points too.

[archypetro]

Originally Posted by ammocase

Elvis had a black belt in American Kenpo, he was an avid martial artists. I think he would get some points too.

Elvis was the king of rock and roll... And as quoted from one of his songs

"if you're gonna start a rumble, don't you do it on your own'.

he'd rock and roll you ... ownage with sideburns


I also thought it was Tae Kwon Do.

[macphersonrants]

Tom Bleecker who knew Bruce, had access to his papers, and was married to Linda Lee-Caldweel for a brief time after Bruce's death makes a convincing case that Bruce had issues with steroids and cortisone abuse later in life (and that this was what likely led to his death). He had access to Bruce's medical records and decisively debunks any debilitating back injury (although Bruce did have concerns with back pain). Bleecker also validated the possibility of Triad enemies, possibly even murdering Lee. Most of Bruce's Hong Kong friends seem to give some creedence to this as well.

Based on Bleecker's book a realistic Bruce would have Addiction, Bad Temper, and Enemies (Hong Kong Triads) (at least towards the end of his life).

Interviews with martial artists who knew Bruce like Joe Lewis, Gene LeBell, or his friends from the Ip Man school tend to rate Bruce as a talented martial artist, but not the best of all time or even his generation. People like these guys, who did have a lot of real world experience do/did tend to rate him as able to handle himself in a real fight.

I'd guess his key martial arts skills probably fell into the 16-18 range. My sense is his real strengths were speed, commitment to training/strong will, fitness, theory, and diversity of skills and technique, and then technical martial arts skills in roughly that order.