[MA] Throw Wrestling, Belt/Jacket Wrestling Styles

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

We decided on Sumo Wrestling Sport as primary skill for belt wrestling, with Force Posture Change (formerly Takedown) and Sweep as Techniques. If you're doing Jacket Wrestling, use Wrestling Sport instead. Technical Grappling introduces the "pickup," which is exactly that - picking your foe up in combat, and notes that's common.

Sounds right for glíma, which is the only one of these styles I have any experience with.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

So, the future-suggested solution here is not Judo Throw at all.

If you must have it, I'd use Technique Adaptation for Judo Throw.

I'm not quite sure which real world styles would have it. I know that many moves termed 'throws' in wrestling terminology are represented as Takedowns in GURPS, but not quite all.

In my campaign, I want there to be a clear difference between wrestlers trained in different styles, but with the mechanics as they are, that's surprisingly difficult. There's just not enough scope for mechanical differrence between styles. I assume Technical Grappling will fix that, of course.

Established wrestling styles in my campaign include a very freestyle, very violent, very pragmatic Combat Wrestling one; a religious/health/lifestyle one similar to Indian Wrestling; two national styles both with a basis in a pankration-like art; a belt-wrestling style from Babylonian-esque roots (but very possibly with Caananite elements), a jacket-wrestling one from a culture of mounted warriors and finally an Egyptian-esque art.

Having some of them be Judo and Wrestling (the pankration-inspired) and some Wrestling is a difference, I guess, but not quite enough of one. All of them exist in the campaign setting in combat-useful varieties as well as Sport-based ones*, but given the availability of magical healing, even sportive contests tend to full-contact violence.

As it happens, I think Sumo Wrestling is a great way to represent many jacket wrestling forms.

*I treat Sport and Art forms of Combat skills as Techniques, anyway. I do agree that what is taught in many sportive or artistic forms has limited or no utility on a confused battlefield without rules or careful one-on-one matchups, but I don't agree that it's realistic or good game design to make it almost precisely as expensive in terms of points and training time for a professional level fighter (DX+2) to turn his sportive skills to battle application as it would be for an untrained person (10 points vs. 12 points).

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

If you check the technique design system in Martial Arts, you can add Sweep to Wrestling, but at -4 instead of -3 as a "new basic attack." That's canonical, and used in the above style (and several others) in TG.

I'd always felt that it was most unfortunate that Sweep was not even a possibility with Wrestling skill, given how many armed styles include only Wrestling as its unarmed skill.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Icelander

I'm not quite sure which real world styles would have it.

Um, ones that can stun and/or damage as a result of it are Throws and the others are Takedowns?

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Um, ones that can stun and/or damage as a result of it are Throws and the others are Takedowns?

In that case, no form of wrestling performed standing up would be without it. There is always a chance that a throw (note lowercase) will disorient and even hurt if you land wrong.

[Gold & Appel Inc]

Originally Posted by Icelander

As it happens, I think Sumo Wrestling is a great way to represent many jacket wrestling forms.

*I treat Sport and Art forms of Combat skills as Techniques, anyway. I do agree that what is taught in many sportive or artistic forms has limited or no utility on a confused battlefield without rules or careful one-on-one matchups, but I don't agree that it's realistic or good game design to make it almost precisely as expensive in terms of points and training time for a professional level fighter (DX+2) to turn his sportive skills to battle application as it would be for an untrained person (10 points vs. 12 points).


I'd always felt that it was most unfortunate that Sweep was not even a possibility with Wrestling skill, given how many armed styles include only Wrestling as its unarmed skill.

Yeah, I would totally use Sumo for this. It's a full grappling skill + ST bonus for Takedowns and the Sweep default, plus Judoesque Throws accessible with a Perk if you want them.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Sounds right for glíma, which is the only one of these styles I have any experience with.

There's just not enough scope for mechanical differrence between styles. I assume Technical Grappling will fix that, of course.

Maybe, maybe not. I didn't do a lot with reworking the actual skills. The other grappling treatment, Ken Clary's Pyramid article, merges them even more, since I recall there's but one grappling skill and the sub-species are techniques.

. . . but given the availability of magical healing, even sportive contests tend to full-contact violence.

That's an interesting observation, and would greatly enhance training in martial arts if, after getting slammed in the face with broken bones, you could wave the magic wand and be "all better."

As it happens, I think Sumo Wrestling is a great way to represent many jacket wrestling forms.

I'm glad; the PTers liked it too.

I do agree that what is taught in many sportive or artistic forms has limited or no utility on a confused battlefield without rules or careful one-on-one matchups, but I don't agree that it's realistic or good game design to make it almost precisely as expensive in terms of points and training time for a professional level fighter (DX+2) to turn his sportive skills to battle application as it would be for an untrained person (10 points vs. 12 points).

Now THIS Technical Grappling does address, though some may or may not like the mechanism for it.

[kenclary]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Maybe, maybe not. I didn't do a lot with reworking the actual skills. The other grappling treatment, Ken Clary's Pyramid article, merges them even more, since I recall there's but one grappling skill and the sub-species are techniques.

Well, something akin to specialties (one "core" hard skill and two specialized medium skills, with defaults set up like optional specialties). But that's a cogent point: Technical Grappling has the (IMO) unenviable task of developing the material while remaining compatible with the Basic Set, Martial Arts, and characters created with those rules/skills. A house-rule system in a Pyramid article has the, uh, luxury of incompatibility.

[Maorencze]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Ah, Sumo Wrestling. That means Wrestling is even more screwed, even post-MA: it has to resort to Takedowns, and thus risk the attacker falling on a simple failure.

Which is why a plenty of wrestling-stylized takedown moves (thinking of different kinds of tackle especially) assume you are able to brace yourself into three-point, crawling position whether successful or not. Not sayin you have to or that you do brace, just sayin that you assume such possibility when performing such move.

[Maorencze]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Let me check . . .

We decided on Sumo Wrestling Sport as primary skill for belt wrestling, with Force Posture Change (formerly Takedown) and Sweep as Techniques. If you're doing Jacket Wrestling, use Wrestling Sport instead. Technical Grappling introduces the "pickup," which is exactly that - picking your foe up in combat, and notes that's common.

So, the future-suggested solution here is not Judo Throw at all.

If you must have it, I'd use Technique Adaptation for Judo Throw. If you check the technique design system in Martial Arts, you can add Sweep to Wrestling, but at -4 instead of -3 as a "new basic attack." That's canonical, and used in the above style (and several others) in TG.

I got some issue with that, but its mainly based on my fan-knowledge of Sumo and some (though quite lacking) experience with stand-up grappling. Some of the Sumo kimarite (eg. "named" winning moves) include hip throw, armlock throw (yes, they DO know armlocks), belt throw (overarm or underarm), beltless arm throw (hip throw variant using underhooked arm as a lever), and other throws as well (though the others are quite in tune with Force Posture Change or Sweep).
Not much experience with traditional belt-wrestling styles, but from what I pick up in videos compared with my personal grappling knowledge (if limited knowledge and little experience), I would say a plenty of moves would be similar or identical to Sumo and then it makes a lot of sense to introduce some way of transfering this throwing knowledge (which actually is quite deep in Sumo as a majority of rrikishi use throws in bouts sometimes and are taught the proper how-to without need to cross train; and it should be mentioned as well that even Jigoro Kano himself studied Sumo or at least knew their techniques, Morihei Ueshiba as well reportedly)

But then again, I got some issue with entire description of Sumo style in MA, to be addressed in solo thread when I complete playtesting of my house-written style for Sumo.

[Maorencze]

To add to previous - in several documentary shows/movies about sumo it is seen that rikishi are somewhat trained to use a breakfall (during so-called "impact drills")
Adding throws to a breakfall, the logic would seem to be quite clear, though contradictory to MA:TG - Power Grappling Perk suddenly makes a lot of sense. Which it doesnt too much, as Power Grappling always seemed a bit over-power.

To respect MA:TG, which I quite like (except a few "house-tweaks" I made) I would suggest an alternative solution, not only for Sumo but for all the styles of Throw Wrestling whose practicioners not only know but are trained in complex throw techniques (and some falling and other Judo-specific stuff alltogether) and that would be to add Judo among basic skills for a Style and allow a specific Perk in line with Skill Adaptation, Special Exercises or Special Setup; specification would be "Judo Throw defaults from ST-based skill roll instead of DX-based one". The logic is, that those guys usually train some basics in overall skill, but mostly practice throws because these are essential for them, and seeing that their "usual craft" is ST-based grappling that would make a lot of sense, for the result is that you suddenly have a freaking strong huge dude with some basic understanding of Judo (DX-2, so 9-11 at best), who trains throws a lot because they are important for his style but tweaks them "his muscle way" (eg. DX-2 in Judo but ST-2 in Judo Throw, which is better for that "model dude" because while he may or may not be agile/nimble, he sure is strong as hell so while his Judo is all-in-all average at best, his Throws are good if somewhat crude because muscle replaces craft somewhat, eg. 12-16 possibly in ST-based Throws if ST 14-18 is to be accepted as a model).

Opinions? :-)

[Maorencze]

Originally Posted by Maorencze

To add to previous - in several documentary shows/movies about sumo it is seen that rikishi are somewhat trained to use a breakfall (during so-called "impact drills")
Adding throws to a breakfall, the logic would seem to be quite clear, though contradictory to MA:TG - Power Grappling Perk suddenly makes a lot of sense. Which it doesnt too much, as Power Grappling always seemed a bit over-power.

To respect MA:TG, which I quite like (except a few "house-tweaks" I made) I would suggest an alternative solution, not only for Sumo but for all the styles of Throw Wrestling whose practicioners not only know but are trained in complex throw techniques (and some falling and other Judo-specific stuff alltogether) and that would be to add Judo among basic skills for a Style and allow a specific Perk in line with Skill Adaptation, Special Exercises or Special Setup; specification would be "Judo Throw defaults from ST-based skill roll instead of DX-based one". The logic is, that those guys usually train some basics in overall skill, but mostly practice throws because these are essential for them, and seeing that their "usual craft" is ST-based grappling that would make a lot of sense, for the result is that you suddenly have a freaking strong huge dude with some basic understanding of Judo (DX-2, so 9-11 at best), who trains throws a lot because they are important for his style but tweaks them "his muscle way" (eg. DX-2 in Judo but ST-2 in Judo Throw, which is better for that "model dude" because while he may or may not be agile/nimble, he sure is strong as hell so while his Judo is all-in-all average at best, his Throws are good if somewhat crude because muscle replaces craft somewhat, eg. 12-16 possibly in ST-based Throws if ST 14-18 is to be accepted as a model).

Opinions? :-)

And I would add (just to myself mostly) - spending 1pt in such a Perk and 1pt in Judo more or less equals 3 months of intense everyday training which I think is quite acceptable for such an option (months of hard work under supervision could realistically earn such result)