Star Wars: Light of the Cauldron

[the_matrix_walker]

On the Force...

I've never been a fan of the notion that some powers were inherently bad to use... It really should be what it is used for!

[Skullcrusher]

I like to put in my hat for a Mercenary or Bounty hunter type. Not a big fan of playing jedi's or force users.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker

On the Force...

I've never been a fan of the notion that some powers were inherently bad to use... It really should be what it is used for!

Magic follows laws of magic, not common rules of morality.
Not to mention that SW is not a universe amenable to shades of moral gray.

[Talosian]

As normal for GURPS, template disadvantage do count against the limit; I'm happy to accept some abilities as a package cost, but racial and professional templates are going to come as separate parts. I think that I'll modify the rules for that one: "50 points in disadvantages, with allowance given for racial/ professional templates where it is deemed appropriate."

This isn't critical, especially with the exceptions being acknowledged, but to be technical (and oh do I love being technical): "Disadvantages that are part of your racial makeup (your “racial template”; see p. 260) are also exempt" (Basic Set 11). By RAW, racial templates are treated as a single trait, and only the net value is counted as an advantage/disadvantage. The confusion with the Jedi templates was along these lines, "However, if the GM rules that all PCs must have certain disadvantages (e.g., all the PCs are spies, with a Duty to their agency), these “campaign disadvantages” should not count against the disadvantage limit," but as non-Jedi are allowed it makes sense (and you'd except Jedi to have less personality issues anyway). To be clear, I'm completely fine with how it's being handled, I just wanted to clarify the RAW.

Rank amongst Jedi is going to be fairly simple: Youngling [0], Padawan [5], Knight [10], Master [15]. There isn't much else that you can use to complicate it really, aside from adding fractional ranks: "I may only be a Knight, but I'm also a Sentinel, so in these circumstances I get to pull rank." [1]

Fair enough. I've seen some attempts to break it down within those classifications (a Padawan near the end of his training would pretty clearly outrank a brand new Padawan, a veteran knight should at least have courtesy rank over a new one, masters would be outranked by members of the council, etc.), but it's completely fair to handle it with patron.

I have no issue with you taking a specific ability that is (effectively) Always On and turning that into an advantage on their racial template. Again, having not looked at the racial template properly, I'd immediately suggest Force Sight as a Scanning Sense that replaces their normal Sight rolls and thus runs off PER + Force Sensitivity rather than off two skill rolls. Probable points cost... I previously developed TK Sense for 30 points which accomplishes similar things, but worked from psi powers rather than from an outside force, so you would throw in some kind of accessibility of it being effective based on the strength of the Force in the area... Maybe 20 points, because it's also subject to Light/ Dark influence.

Okay, I'm building a draft off of the Extra-Sensory Perception variety of Scanning Sense found in Psionic Powers (17). Current stats:

Scanning Sense (Extra-Sensory Perception) (Extended Arc (360°), +125%; Penetrating, +50%; Increased Range 1, +10%; Force, -10%) [55]

It'd allow complete awareness of everything within 40 yards, but nothing beyond that. It can penetrate up to 12" of solid material, allowing it to see through most walls (and, awkwardly and disconcertingly, inside of things such as people O_o). No color, potentially problematically, screens would be unusable without a physical presentation* (holograms might work, depending on WTF holograms are in Star Wars), but books would be fine. Darkness wouldn't matter, but it wouldn't function in the absence of the Force. Mundane invisibility or force abilities designed for hiding would be useless against it, but things or force abilities designed to hide one's presence in the force would equate to invisibility. Detect/Empathy would still be necessary to enable the identification of force users and to mimic the morality sensing, so I'm working on adapting them to function through the Scanning Sense (VERY IMPORTANT: Does anyone know whether or not Sense Based, Reversed replaces range concerns? If not, I need to fiddle with that :/)

*Again, holograms might work, but if not, hurrah for aural interfaces.

I have a lingering feeling that however logical it seems, the 360° arc was probably not the original intention. It may make more sense to assume a default arc for most Miraluka, and allow some to buy extended arcs of vision (Luka Sene primarily focus on developing these abilities, so this would be a logical extension).

Basic is the common language (it's what they speak as English in the films); it's been around for long enough that any player character will be able to understand it. Combine that with some of the regular trade languages and translator droids, and we should be fine, if a bit slow sometimes (for a GM-provided translator droid as part of your team, conversation can proceed as if there is no issue).

The concern here was mostly that in a setting with a zillion languages and easy and common translation, languages are grossly overpriced in GURPS. Personally, I think it'd make sense to let languages be entirely dictated by background, but letting each character be bilingual for free seems accurate to the films*, and fairer to non-humans.

*Almost everyone can speak/understand at least two languages. Off the top of my head, Han Solo at least understands Rodian, Shyriiwook (Wookiee), Huttese, and Basic. Luke (and many other people) understands Binary (droid), and virtually every alien will at least understand basic (and probably speak it) in addition to their own language (most Star Wars rpgs assume this by default).

I got confused when I was running Worlds of Fire when it came to one character and their starting equipment,

Not half as confused as I O_O 'Twas on that day that I learned Gizmos are not nifty conveniences, but sanity saving necessities.

I find it some what ironic that essentially what this amounts to is that Jedi can be more evil, more often, with fewer repercussions. I suppose the Duty mitigates that.

Hmm. Interesting thought here. I kind of agree with Ransom, mostly on the basis that having a strict set of ethical rules doesn't really help if you're already violating them. Would it be viable/logical to make it a bonus/ability to "atone" dark side points over time? In that case having a moral code (and an organization of people to turn to) would definitely make a difference. It would have the benefit of making Jedi equally vulnerable to falling due to dark side actions, while also enabling proactive Jedi to more strongly resist falling.

I haven't added it in yet, but I'm debating a Potentium Heresy disadvantage, which amounts to Delusion (There is no Light Side or Dark Side); that gives you an automatic -3 on these rolls.

<just got called a heretic> :'(
(I was totally thinking of having a Potentium-inclined character, as this is how I've always understood the force.)

Not to mention that SW is not a universe amenable to shades of moral gray.

I do not know where our Star Wars experiences have differed, but I've always seen Star Wars as having bucket loads of moral gray. Sure, there's always a good side and a wrong side, but almost every major Star Wars character has had a struggle with the Dark Side, and often flip-flopped a bit before reaching redemption.

-

Well, this team is looking a bit short on Jedi... I have about four character concepts (Luka Sene academic, Sene Seeker, Gray Jedi, and a now off-the-table gunslinger), so if Totem would allow it, I'd be happy to run a Jedi character alongside a Luka Sene one. They probably wouldn't get along.

Even if not, I might do that anyway. I've divided my emotional loyalties between multiple characters, and it's killing me >.<

EDIT: About the Potentium view point, it's actually incorrect to say that they believe that there is no light or dark side. Their beliefs are more akin to what Matrix and I were saying, actually. "It should be noted that some followers of the Potentium still attempted to avoid the dark side. They, however, saw the dark side as something within themselves to be avoided, not something in the Force. They reasoned that if the Force was the energy that flows through all life, the dark side simply came from the corruption of humanity. They felt that if they could be perfectly moral, they could be immune to the dark side and therefore use any technique they wanted."
EDIT 2: Regarding the alignment system, how does that work for the (many) non-Jedi/Force users? Depending on what qualifies for earning DSP, questionably moral characters (Han Solo, etc.) could easily end up in a hole really fast.

[Totem]

Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker

I'm interested in a Jedi, maybe a member of Yoda's species... or something with extra arms...

Short or lots of arms... I'm sure we can do both.

I'm fairly sure that Yoda's species doesn't have a name (I've never seen one anyway). Racial template is probably reduced height (and ST accordingly), maybe a missing finger or two, possibly improved hearing for the ears, and an extended lifespan.

Originally Posted by Talosian

This isn't critical, especially with the exceptions being acknowledged, but to be technical (and oh do I love being technical): "Disadvantages that are part of your racial makeup (your “racial template”; see p. 260) are also exempt" (Basic Set 11).

I'll confess: this is partly related to how my character sheet works. There isn't a separate slot for putting in racial advantages/ disadvantages, so everything just goes in together. I have now checked properly and confirmed that you are right. So yes, I'll go with RAW and just try to keep track as best I can on the character sheet.

Originally Posted by Talosian

Okay, I'm building a draft off of the Extra-Sensory Perception variety of Scanning Sense found in Psionic Powers (17). Current stats:

Scanning Sense (Extra-Sensory Perception) (Extended Arc (360°), +125%; Penetrating, +50%; Increased Range 1, +10%; Force, -10%) [55]

*Again, holograms might work, but if not, hurrah for aural interfaces.

I have a lingering feeling that however logical it seems, the 360° arc was probably not the original intention. It may make more sense to assume a default arc for most Miraluka, and allow some to buy extended arcs of vision (Luka Sene primarily focus on developing these abilities, so this would be a logical extension).

Colourblindness and not being able to use screens were an aspect of that TK Sense as well. I will allow that because the Force links all things you have a sense of the energy in the screen or a hologram, so you can get a very low resolution idea of what is there (so a hologram isn't invisible, it's just not clear enough to identify a face unless it's magnified).

Originally Posted by Talosian

The concern here was mostly that in a setting with a zillion languages and easy and common translation, languages are grossly overpriced in GURPS. Personally, I think it'd make sense to let languages be entirely dictated by background, but letting each character be bilingual for free seems accurate to the films*, and fairer to non-humans.

It is one of those things that they do throw in with things like this. The only time I can remember a sci-fi translator that had to hear the whole of what was being said and then repeated it in the appropriate language (which is actually a vital necessity with most languages) is in Ringworld.

Originally Posted by Talosian

<just got called a heretic> :'(
(I was totally thinking of having a Potentium-inclined character, as this is how I've always understood the force.)

Originally Posted by Talosian

Well, this team is looking a bit short on Jedi... I have about four character concepts (Luka Sene academic, Sene Seeker, Gray Jedi, and a now off-the-table gunslinger), so if Totem would allow it, I'd be happy to run a Jedi character alongside a Luka Sene one. They probably wouldn't get along.

Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker

I've never been a fan of the notion that some powers were inherently bad to use... It really should be what it is used for!

I should really have gone for something easy, like crocodile baiting...

Okay, I've read up to Talosian's latest post (#15), and I'm going to handle all of the Light Side/ Dark Side discussion here rather than answering everything independently.

[The following features some generalisations, but please take it in the spirit that I'm meaning it.]

What we have here is a clash of philosophies. According to Eastern philosophy you can summon demons, call up hellfire and rain unholy carnage down on your enemies, and as long as you're doing it for the right reasons that's fine. This explains a lot about some anime and manga.

Western philosophy, and that which I'm using here, is based on several different thoughts. On a purely pragmatic level, every time you call on the Dark Side you are having to justify it to yourself, and every time, however small the increments are, you can justify something slightly more easily than you did previously. Or you can justify something slightly less justifiable. Justification becomes habit over time. It's a thing of Human nature.

On an emotional level, the Dark Side can be within you. You are using anger, fear, etc, to power your actions and dictate what you do. That in itself can become a habit as well, and should be avoided.

On a spiritual level, Western philosophy has it that when you call on dark powers, they start to call on you, or at least their attention is drawn to you. To some people this might be a loud voice shouting "Come On! USE ME!" at every opportunity. To others it might be a quiet voice that begs and pleads and cajoles with them to give in "just this once more."

On a different spiritual level, calling up Lightning or anything like that is effectively channelling the life energy of the universe for destructive purposes. I'm going with Harry Dresden on this one, and just saying that this is a very wrong thing to do.

The combination of these three is the basis that I am working from with DSP and the Dark Side. Whether you personally take it to be logical justification, emotional habit, or spiritual guidance, please accept that there is a Dark Side in this game and you can fall to it. Remember Darth Vader: he wanted his son to join him, he wanted to help him against the Emperor, he wanted all sorts of things, and until that last second all he could do was say, "you don't know the power of the Dark Side: I must obey my master." Going by the films, the Dark Side is something outside yourself and directs your actions.



The Moral Guidance was intended to take into account the long-term effects of having someone around to keep an eye on you (thus why the Grey Jedi don't get it because they distance themselves from the Order). This is a similar principle to the witches on the Discworld going round to visit each other, to keep chatting, and generally checking that no one has started 'cackling', which is an early sign of going to the bad. Applying a long-term effect to an immediate roll may be contrary, and I'm open to ideas on how to rejig that if appropriate.

The old Star Wars RPGs did list that non-Force-using characters could take DSP and LSP if appropriate to their deeds, but that their lack of more complete connection to the Force meant that they weren't influenced by them in the same way. A Jedi using Sense/ Force will still pick up on them as an indicator of their moral background, but otherwise they have no immediate effect. Unless of course the Dark Side is merely something inside you, in which case I have to count them in the same way as for Jedi and declare characters to be Dark Siders.

The moral grey in Star Wars is there, but sometimes it isn't obvious in the films because they are in a very morally definite setting: people are obviously good or bad/ rebel or imperial. Or are they? There's an anecdote (from after the Emperor's death) about an Imperial world where there was an anti-Imperial demonstration, and the Stormtroopers were only called out to deal with it when the counter-demonstration that sprung up got violent. The galaxy was actually a lot more peaceful under the Empire, because they kept a lot of diplomatic and political bushfires supressed. The Sith were a bad thing, and the Empire under them was a long way off perfect, but the Empire itself had a lot of potential.

Anyway... Moral grey areas. As mentioned, using the Force to inconvenience someone is technically wrong. But if it's a small inconvenience, or you genuinely need it in order to get something done and there isn't any other way, then is it a Dark Side act? Do you get a modifier, or do you avoid the roll? Likewise, killing an enemy who hasn't surrendered, but whom you could take alive; right or wrong? We're getting quite deep here, and a lot of these shades of grey would need to be addressed as and when they actually happen.

[Totem]

I didn't want to run this game to be some kind of moral minefield; it is meant to have a serious edge of there being consequences for using the Dark Side (I'm actually being quite lenient here, because in the Star Wars RPGs that I've seen you make a roll with a penalty for your DSP every time you level up and take permanent physical damage of some kind if you fail). If having a moral system to abide by is going to be some kind of major issue for people in the game, then I have to consider that this might be more trouble than it is worth, and since the Light Side/ Dark Side has always been an intrinsic part of Star Wars for me, I can't run the game without it.

As an alternative, I'll offer up my second choice of game:

Genre: Modern, Psionic, Military/ Intelligence
Activities Planned: Military/ Intelligence stuff
Supplement materials: GURPS Basic Set will be the only requirement. GURPS High Tech will be of use for equipment.
Plot: There will be an ongoing plot (or several lines of plot in fact). Given the role that players will be taking on, they will not be expected to keep track of the major plotlines, but situational plot-awareness will be important (decisions will be made based on player/ character understanding of the situation).
Power Level: Players have 100+50 points available. Players will then get the Psionic racial template [430 points], and an additional 30 points in basic training (10 points of which must go into each of Military/ Intelligence and Psionic skills).
Style: This game will be held to a reasonably serious level. While there will be dark and gritty moments for the most part it will be aiming for a realistic level of seriousness; there will be moments of humour as well as dark ones. While players will be endangered this is intended to be ultimately survivable.


Mind Force is based around a project creating psionics, originally for purely military purposes, then later for intelligence/ counter-terrorism. Psionics have to be engineered before they are born, and the government was unwilling to suffer the expenditure and political backlash from raising such children in a restricted training environment, so everyone has lived a normal life until being 'activated' (this includes taking blockers every day until recruitment in order to hide the abilities). The template is fixed; abilities that list a price per level can be improved (these actually start at level 1, but can immediately be bought up under the 430 point template limit), otherwise improvement is intended to be through skills and talents rather than modifying abilities.

The only moral complication here is, basically, that everyone is based on a regular point limit (75-150 for most 'normal' people that you will meet), but people with powers have massive powers on top of that. How you react to it is up to you, and may form a significant part of the plot if you drive it that way.


Psionic racial template:
TK (Telekinesis [5]; Psionic -10%; Fulcrum -30% = [3/ level]) 20 [60]
TK Shield (DR [5]; Force Field +20%; Limited, Physical -20%; Psionic -10%; Requires IQ roll -10%; Environmental -30% = [2.5/ level]) 20 [50]
TK Sense [30]
Bio-Control [60]
Temperature Control ([2]; Fulcrum -30%; Psionic -10%; Requires IQ roll -10% = [1/ level]) [20]
Infravision (Refined +100%) [20]
Electrical Control ([2]; Fulcrum -30%; Psionic -10%; Requires IQ roll -10% = [1/ level]) [20]
Electrical Vision (Detect, Electrical Fields 10; Psionic -10%; Vision Based -10%; Reflexive +40%) [12]
Mind Control (Psionic -10%; Conditioning +50%; Extended Duration x100 +80%; Symbolic +0%) [110]
Empathy (Psionic -10%) [14]

TK Talent 1 [5]
BC Talent 1 [5]
TH Talent 1 [5]
EK Talent 1 [5]
TP Talent 1 [5]

* Fulcrum is an environmental modifier that means that you need to (for instance) steal kinetic energy from a moving object in order to get something else moving, or dump kinetic energy from a moving object into something else to stop it (TK Shield 'borrows' DR from something like a wall to form its shield), or cooling something down in order to increase the temperature elsewhere.

[Talosian]

I'm interested in a Jedi, maybe a member of Yoda's species... or something with extra arms...

Yoda's species would indeed be a pain, because it's incredibly vague and secretive : / Extra arms, on the other hand... I'ma look around for a bit on Wookieepedia, and see what I can find.

EDIT: Multiple arms time! The ones that I found (I chucked a few that were effectively unplayable, but didn't look at any of them very thoroughly): Besalisks, Myneyrshi, Pho Ph'eahians, Codru-Ji, Morseerians, and the Xexto.

Just... please, whatever you do, don't go the route of giving one of these four lightsabers, Ambidexterity, and "Dual"-Weapon Attack. The sheer amount of destruction would end the world. (And make my planned mere dual-wielder feel rather inadequate XD)

I'll confess: this is partly related to how my character sheet works. There isn't a separate slot for putting in racial advantages/ disadvantages, so everything just goes in together.

*cough* GCS master race *cough* :D

Colourblindness and not being able to use screens were an aspect of that TK Sense as well. I will allow that because the Force links all things you have a sense of the energy in the screen or a hologram, so you can get a very low resolution idea of what is there (so a hologram isn't invisible, it's just not clear enough to identify a face unless it's magnified).

Hurrah for screens! :D (I'm currently in the process of confronting myself with the reality that no matter how little sense it makes, it's pretty clear that Miraluka/force vision users are assumed to, by default, only see in a "normal" visual arc : / I'll probably be adjusting the template to reflect this, and possibly adding another level or two of Increased Range or otherwise filling in the template to bring it to around [0], though I'll probably want my character ).

-

Honestly, it really doesn't bother me that we don't all have the same view of the Force and what constitutes light side/dark side, and I'm nowhere near invested enough to make a problem of it. As long as we all know what to expect and it isn't punitive (to be clear, your proposed system poses no problem whatsoever in this regard, though the one you mentioned from one of the SW rpgs would have given me life-threateningly severe eye twitches of rage), I can't see how it could really be a big issue.

I do think that there's probably a better way to approximate the benefit that Jedi receive from having the Order around to be their moral medic, but this also isn't all that big a deal. I want to fiddle with so that (in my mind, at least) the rules jive properly with the concept, but I don't need to "win" on this, because it really won't matter that much.

FYI: Your Discworld comparison has finally convinced me that I need to find and read the Discworld series (it's been on the agenda for a long time).

In short, I like the morality system, and I think that the points of contention would be extremely minor in practice (e.g. how often would force lightning honestly be used for an arguably moral purpose? Not often). I'm all in favor of continuing with the Star Wars game.

... but I must admit, the Psi game looks pretty damn cool as well XD I'm curious how player characters would be differentiated, however, with such a major portion of the characters being a standard template (especially since the rest would be 100 points of probably-not-an-adventurer). On the other hand, there're enough different abilities that characters would probably become distinct based on which abilities each player preferred.

If it came down to votes, I'd vote Star Wars, but I'd probably join regardless of the game.

EDIT: Ahwoops. I forgot one of my major comments. In terms of fiddling with the DSP system, it might be worth looking at Horror's bit on Corruption (146-148). Very similar in concept, and has some solidly applicable ideas that might provide a road map for atonement and such.

[LemmingLord]

Good morning! I regret that I am overextended just now and won't be able to join this game.

[Totem]

Originally Posted by Talosian

I do think that there's probably a better way to approximate the benefit that Jedi receive from having the Order around to be their moral medic, but this also isn't all that big a deal. I want to fiddle with so that (in my mind, at least) the rules jive properly with the concept, but I don't need to "win" on this, because it really won't matter that much.

I think I'm going to move it to a bonus on a period of meditation to remove DSP. That seems the best option at this point.

Originally Posted by Talosian

... but I must admit, the Psi game looks pretty damn cool as well XD I'm curious how player characters would be differentiated, however, with such a major portion of the characters being a standard template (especially since the rest would be 100 points of probably-not-an-adventurer). On the other hand, there're enough different abilities that characters would probably become distinct based on which abilities each player preferred.

Concept is thus:
Psychics are naturally occurring and have powers ranging from -30 up to 600 points (averaging the 20-30 points mark). Even with regular tests to spot people with such abilities (following an... incident... in the 1950s it is accepted that such abilities exist, and so kids get tested every could of years in school), most psychics end up lonely and detached from the world around them by default.

Psionics are artificially engineered, and only the combination of the five talents would hold steady together (you could have just one, but that was kind of limited). There are several programs around the world producing psionics, most of them antagonistic to each other. They are all the same sort of age as PCs would be, but some of them have been raised in camps, from birth, and have been training the entire time. Your main advantage: your existence is classified and has been secret enough that no one even knows that you exist, where most of the other programs are known about to intelligence services at least.

The key difference between player characters was that you get activated at the age of 18-21, so you have a formative life in that first 100+50 points, but nothing in terms of actual combat training (unless you took up Karate or Judo as a hobby for instance). That's a lot of difference right there. From there, the template includes several levelled abilities which can be emphasised or ignored as appropriate. And it doesn't include any skill points, so what you choose to focus your initial training on is your choice; even spending the whole 20 points not assigned to military/ intelligence skills, you've got plenty of variety of how to make things work.

And I forgot: by selective breeding or the psionic booster process itself (no one is sure) you get IQ+2 as part of the template.

Originally Posted by Talosian

EDIT: Ahwoops. I forgot one of my major comments. In terms of fiddling with the DSP system, it might be worth looking at Horror's bit on Corruption (146-148). Very similar in concept, and has some solidly applicable ideas that might provide a road map for atonement and such.

Horror being one of the ones that I don't have at present. I'll think on it though.

[the_matrix_walker]

Originally Posted by Talosian

Just... please, whatever you do, don't go the route of giving one of these four lightsabers, Ambidexterity, and "Dual"-Weapon Attack. The sheer amount of destruction would end the world. (And make my planned mere dual-wielder feel rather inadequate XD)

=]

You will have to learn to live with your feelings of inadequacy. :P