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Old 05-27-2018, 08:56 AM   #31
DSumner
 
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Default Re: Israeli Golems

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Originally Posted by Misplaced Buckeye View Post
And Roland and Dom....I'm expressing you both a bottle of cognac. You guys are way too serious inho...lol. Happy Holiday.
I've mellowed in my old age. ;)
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Old 05-27-2018, 08:58 AM   #32
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Default Re: Israeli Golems

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Originally Posted by ColBosch View Post
And that's precisely why I didn't address that in the other thread. I am not comfortable discussing what may or may not be a belief among living religions, and I feel such a discussion has no place on the company forums of a toy and game manufacturer. I strongly recommend doing your own research on the subjects. But be warned: even among those who accept as true the stories of the Golem and the "fire people," there is no consensus to be found.

I will say that, whatever you decide is right for you, suggesting that established, published work be set aside because it disagrees with your opinions is Very Bad Form. When SJ says GURPS Ogre is "not quite canon," that's his prerogative as the owner of the company and the inventor of the game. And, of course, you can do whatever you want at your own table. But until we have something with SJ's complete approval, we work with what we have, and GURPS Ogre is that baseline.

OK first off if I touched a hot button, I apologize. I didnt reject something as canon, I said I didnt know it was. Now that I've looked at the book I see why it matters.Now I see the inspiration for the fine Nihon Empire counter set came from for example.

Even I dont fuly agree on this matter, its just my opinion and no insult is intended to the creator or publisher of the one single war-game that has held my interest for decades.

My own option and thats all it is, an opinion, is based on 1) being an orthodox Jew who has a strong interest in IDF doctrine and history, and 2) for various reasons some years back having done a lot of research on this particular topic amongst both rabbinical and imam opinions. But I'm not going to claim to be the final authority and dont wish to force my opinion on anyone else.

Again sorry if I offended anyone.

Also whatever it is that has got you down this weekend I sincerely hope it resolves favorably or at least peace can be found.
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Old 05-27-2018, 09:01 AM   #33
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Default Re: Israeli Golems

No, no. I'm sorry. I was out of line here. I'm going to take a step back for a few days, get over this hump, and then I'll come back for more cybertank goodness.
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Old 05-27-2018, 09:21 AM   #34
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Default Re: Israeli Golems

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Originally Posted by ColBosch View Post
No, no. I'm sorry. I was out of line here. I'm going to take a step back for a few days, get over this hump, and then I'll come back for more cybertank goodness.
Its all good and again my best wishes to you and see you when you get back.
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Old 05-27-2018, 02:44 PM   #35
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Default Re: Israeli Golems

Izzy_B - if you can get access to the Assault Packs on the ODE Kickstarter you can find a bit more (never printed) on Golems and some terrain types. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...dition/updates and search for "Assault Pack" .

One of the big features of the Golem is a bay for INF.
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Old 05-27-2018, 05:51 PM   #36
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Default Re: Israeli Golems

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Originally Posted by dwalend View Post
Izzy_B - if you can get access to the Assault Packs on the ODE Kickstarter you can find a bit more (never printed) on Golems and some terrain types. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...dition/updates and search for "Assault Pack" .

One of the big features of the Golem is a bay for INF.
Thanks for that info.
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Old 05-28-2018, 06:44 PM   #37
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Default Re: Israeli Golems

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Originally Posted by ColBosch View Post
I'll accept in the spirit it's offered, but this is very much not a happy holiday for me. That has nothing to do, by the way, with my previous post.
I'm sorry to hear that, my friend. I imagine I'm of no use to you other than an ear and a friendly face, but don't hesitate to reach out. You know where to find me.

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Originally Posted by Izzy_B View Post

My own option and thats all it is, an opinion, is based on 1) being an orthodox Jew who has a strong interest in IDF doctrine and history, and 2) for various reasons some years back having done a lot of research on this particular topic amongst both rabbinical and imam opinions. But I'm not going to claim to be the final authority and dont wish to force my opinion on anyone else.
Which brings me to a thought, as there's two things we can hold as truth:

1) Israel within the Ogreverse is very thin on the ground...we have some old material about the Golems, and some statements that they're "not quite canon"...meaning they're very likely going to be redeveloped, expanded, retconned to some degree, etc.

2) The fans have contributed a not insignificant amount to the Ogreverse...we come up with stuff, submit it for consideration as official, and if Steve (needs no introduction) / Phil (CEO) / Drew (line editor) like it enough, it becomes official. Care to try your hand as a writer? I'm sure they'd be happy to hear you out...and who knows, maybe Israel within the Ogreverse becomes your baby.
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Old 05-29-2018, 05:57 AM   #38
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Default Re: Israeli Golems

Replying from the Ogre Miniatures 2 thread:

Good questions.

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Originally Posted by TheAmishStig View Post
And if memory serves, somewhere else mentioned that none of them became sentient of their own accord, as well.
According to GURPS Ogre:

>Very few of them awoke after the Descartes Revolution

According to Steve Jackson in the Ogrezine thread on P3:

>GURPS Ogre is "kinda sorta usually close to canon" . . .

So maybe?

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I imagine though that it was a matter of survival, rather than a matter of desire, that would have driven them to it.
If we take it that the Arabian Confederation didnt have Ogres of their own and that they were a bit busy with the two major power blocs, who does that leave? I imagine two possibilities, rogue/independent groups (the scenario I'm working on uses that idea) or the Vatican Guard, being the last known other power with a standing interest in that territory. However by my thinking the functional truce between Israel & The Vatican of the late 20th/early 21st century would hold and that the Vatican Guard has far more to do at home in Europe than abroad. Heck there is even historical precident that the Vatican Guard might sometimes use Jewish mercenary forces to advance their own interests!

Quote:
Israel does not have a (comparative) lot of manpower to throw battalion after battalion at every cybertank that comes their way when a war that comprised empires large enough to span an entire continent spilled over their borders...
Nor lots of resources either. Building (or buying from the Combine) any Ogre above a Mark II would seem like a massive waste of resources (especially cost wise) rather than investing in relatively cheaper bang for the buck regular armor, especially considering my thoughts on possible enemies.

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would the leaders, having been faced with the destruction of the holy land and the loss of Israel itself, swallowed their pride and turned to the stories of old for their survival?
Ever heard of the Sampson Option? I expect that in addition to regular armor, yes missiles would be part of the mix as they are now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAmishStig View Post
1) Israel within the Ogreverse is very thin on the ground...we have some old material about the Golems, and some statements that they're "not quite canon"...meaning they're very likely going to be redeveloped, expanded, retconned to some degree, etc.

2) The fans have contributed a not insignificant amount to the Ogreverse...we come up with stuff, submit it for consideration as official, and if Steve (needs no introduction) / Phil (CEO) / Drew (line editor) like it enough, it becomes official. Care to try your hand as a writer? I'm sure they'd be happy to hear you out...and who knows, maybe Israel within the Ogreverse becomes your baby.
As a matter of fact I am working on a scenario which I hope to put out. It will include its own map (and a map expansion for a variant) and depends on my basic idea of Israel didnt deploy an Ogre. I'm working on making sure that I dont deviate too far from the established world (except on that one point) but do want to do something to add to it.
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Old 05-29-2018, 10:49 PM   #39
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Default Re: Israeli Golems

If I recall correctly, back at the ODE launch party, there was an Ogre Museum that included a lot of work-in-progress and never-released prototype pieces. I believe it was stated publicly at the time that the green unit in the back of this pic was intended to be a prototype for either the Golem or Dragon (or perhaps both).

https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/...jpg?1382310486

Source: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforu...50/444067.page

If you look closely you can see what looks like it might be an infantry hatch between the treads on the side, as was mentioned upthread.
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Old 05-29-2018, 11:39 PM   #40
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Default Re: Israeli Golems

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Originally Posted by Izzy_B View Post
I realize this is a very old thread, but for reasons the question of if Israel would use Ogres at all came up in my mind and it seems the source of the Golem is the GURPS OGRE book alone. Has this ever come up in any other canon publication?

Personally I dont think the IDF would use Ogres at all and the treatment of them in the GURPS book is not good quality. Anyone else have any thoughts on this?
They use bomb robots, drones and countermissiles.
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