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Old 06-20-2016, 04:45 AM   #1
vicky_molokh
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Default Language and linguistic intelligence versus general intelligence

Greetings, all!

A linguistic intelligence tangent inspired me to start this thread.

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Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
I see your point, but human intelligence and our full language "module" more specifically are qualitatively different from all other forms of smarts.
It is occasionally pointed out that linguistic intelligence is not necessarily at the same level as other intelligence of a person. For instance, Raven's Matrices are an IQ test (yeah, I know) that is meant to be independent of ability to comprehend language.

This got me thinking: what should characters or even species with vast differences between linguistic and general intelligence be like, and how can they best be represented by traits?

The most obvious traits are Language Talent and Dyslexia, but I think the former focuses too much on multinational environments and too little on differences in everyday lives 'at home', while the latter is not quite appropriate due to being restricted to written language. The way I see it, being restricted to Broken or Accented levels in all languages (even the first one) may be a proper way to represent a below-human level of linguistic intelligence, but there isn't a trait for it. (No, it's not Taboo Trait for the same reason Dyslexia isn't a Taboo Trait.) I'm not sure how to represent a civilization which has a linguistic potential and complexity (and presumably knowledge) that exceeds the level that humans see as Native/Native.

Another interesting consideration is how would a civilization that managed to overcome their poor linguistic intelligence (whether through persistence and technology, or through possessing compensatory advantages in other areas of intelligence) and achieve a high TL look like. I'm thinking that it's a good idea to bet on such a species having a civilization with a bigger emphasis on iconographic nonlinguistic communication and on use of nonverbal cues. The other bet I have is some aspect of intelligence that drastically changes the learning process of individuals - probably into something more visual/aural, hands-on.

Any other interesting thoughts along this direction?
Thanks in advance!
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Old 06-20-2016, 05:52 AM   #2
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Default Re: Language and linguistic intelligence versus general intelligence

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
I'm not sure how to represent a civilization which has a linguistic potential and complexity (and presumably knowledge) that exceeds the level that humans see as Native/Native.
Try telepathy.

I do see problems having a species locked to Accented. I mean, B24 states that speech and writing is idiosyncratic. Now unless everyone is idiosyncratic in there own way, isn't that really just a regular language? Now if everyone is idiosyncratic in there own way, I could see this working for a first contact setting where the contact team is working under a -1 that the natives bought off with a perk that applies for in-person communication.

I really can't see Broken language working as a standard mode of communication, as a supplemental aid would probably be as effective. Unless this is a race of super-geniuses, failure to communicate will be happening all the time (25% with an IQ of 10).
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Old 06-20-2016, 10:37 AM   #3
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Default Re: Language and linguistic intelligence versus general intelligence

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I really can't see Broken language working as a standard mode of communication, as a supplemental aid would probably be as effective. Unless this is a race of super-geniuses, failure to communicate will be happening all the time (25% with an IQ of 10).
Surely that it doesn't work all that well is exactly the point?
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Old 06-20-2016, 12:06 PM   #4
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Default Re: Language and linguistic intelligence versus general intelligence

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
I'm not sure how to represent a civilization which has a linguistic potential and complexity (and presumably knowledge) that exceeds the level that humans see as Native/Native.
Perhaps they can 'pack' more information into what they are saying, speeding up discussion? Or they can communicate on multiple levels, as some people believe women do.



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Originally Posted by TGLS View Post
I do see problems having a species locked to Accented.
It means their language is limited in some strong way, for example if they have no words for commerce or debt in their language then entire concepts are difficult to discuss, or perhaps the language is extremely formal and stilted disallowing flexibility or even entire thoughts in discussions.
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Old 06-20-2016, 12:08 PM   #5
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Default Re: Language and linguistic intelligence versus general intelligence

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Originally Posted by TGLS View Post
Try telepathy.
Telepathy is actually an idea that is moving in a direction 180° opposite to that of advanced language, as it usually implies a conveyance of meaning despite not having any notable improvements in their symbolic representation.
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Old 06-20-2016, 01:35 PM   #6
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Default Re: Language and linguistic intelligence versus general intelligence

Quote:
Originally Posted by TGLS View Post
I do see problems having a species locked to Accented. I mean, B24 states that speech and writing is idiosyncratic. Now unless everyone is idiosyncratic in there own way, isn't that really just a regular language?
Real world example: someone with one of the various forms of aphasia. I have two different, but low frequency of appearance, forms of aphasia. Both of my variants are related to noun retrieval - I may have the right thing in mind, but when speaking a conceptually related[1] word comes out instead, or, I just can't get the word in the first place and my mind "jamns" and I can't think.[2]
My problem is neurological - it's brain damage, I've had it for a very very long time, and it can't be medicated.

If a whole species has organic, neurological problems with noun retrieval, due to "bad wiring design" rather than damage, communication is going to be riddled with errors. It's also going to be slower, as everyone suddenly stops and goes "er, whats that word, you know, the ceiling window..." "...skylight?" "Yeah, that's it." every five sentences.

Seniors tend to have a lot of problems with aphasia due to microstrokes and dementia, and it can be the cause of long rambling storytelling; going off on a tangent lets you stall for time while you try and remember the word.

[1] Related as in free-association, not etymology. I'm likely to pull up an antonym, the word of something with what I consider to be "the same attributes" (color, word-shape...), or in the case of numbers, the right number but I say it off by some order of magnitude (usually one or two orders, could be in either direction) - saying "Ten thousand" or "one hundred" when I mean 1,000.

[2] Not in the Sapir-Worf sense of "no word for the idea, therefore can't think of the idea" - it's just extremely distracting and distressing for your brain to fail you like that.
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Old 06-20-2016, 01:58 PM   #7
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Default Re: Language and linguistic intelligence versus general intelligence

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
Real world example: someone with one of the various forms of aphasia. I have two different, but low frequency of appearance, forms of aphasia. Both of my variants are related to noun retrieval - I may have the right thing in mind, but when speaking a conceptually related[1] word comes out instead, or, I just can't get the word in the first place and my mind "jamns" and I can't think.[2]
My problem is neurological - it's brain damage, I've had it for a very very long time, and it can't be medicated.
Ditto on the low frequency noun-loss aphasia (also I do number substitution*). For me I either freeze up incapable of even articulating that there is an issue (due to frustration) or I begin describing the last word.

The first time I can distinctly remember this happening the word I lost was 'shoe' and the sentence went like so:

"I need to get my... leather and rubber foot covering protection devices". That was when I realized there was an issue... unfortunately my parents just thought I "was being weird again".


* If I read off a number more than two numbers in length I will sometimes mix them up, thus nineteen hundred eighty-two will come out as "1892" or "1298" or something.

Quote:
If a whole species has organic, neurological problems with noun retrieval, due to "bad wiring design" rather than damage, communication is going to be riddled with errors. It's also going to be slower, as everyone suddenly stops and goes "er, whats that word, you know, the ceiling window..." "...skylight?" "Yeah, that's it." every five sentences.
That's a another very good example of a species language limit. Though it's likely something along the lines of Language Anti-Talent, thus treating all language levels as one less when communicating verbally or quickly.

There would be no limit on reading comprehension (unless they were also dyslexic) and no limit on slow writing capacity.
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Old 06-20-2016, 02:05 PM   #8
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Default Re: Language and linguistic intelligence versus general intelligence

A species with a superhuman linguistic facility would probably be really good at reading. They'd read fast, and comprehend what is being said on the first try. They'd have a general bonus when teaching each other and being taught. Their own language would be exceptionally hard to learn because it would be filled with fine distinctions and subtle tonalities that seem easy to distinguish to their ears. Essentially they'd have IQ!
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Old 06-20-2016, 02:41 PM   #9
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Default Re: Language and linguistic intelligence versus general intelligence

If you want to know about high linguistic intelligence separated from general intelligence, look up Williams Syndrome. One of my players used to work for a research psychologist who was a leading researcher on the topic.
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Old 06-20-2016, 02:44 PM   #10
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Default Re: Language and linguistic intelligence versus general intelligence

I've read an account of a group of adults in a Central American country, who were all deaf and had not been taught any form of sign language, or learned to read lips and speak. There was an incident when one of them had gone out on a trip, and wanted to get it across to the others what their day had been like. So what they did was mime various actions and experiences. This was a very slow process, with a lot of guesswork and wrong guesses, taking much longer than the things it described. But apparently they were able to achieve some level of communication. Language ability limited to Broken might be sort of like that.
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