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Old 07-18-2018, 06:10 PM   #1
Steve Jackson
President and EIC
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Default Phasing for falling down/standing up

There was an attempt to discuss this earlier, I know, but I was on four other things :) Anyway:

You fall down either during movement, when you make a bad die roll on bad footing, or in combat, when you get hit for 8 points or more.

Assuming you survive, you stand up during the movement phase.

As it stands, if you are knocked down in combat, only those opponents whose DX is lower than yours will get a +4 hack at you.

If you stand up during the COMBAT phase of your turn, the person who knocked you down will get a +4 swing at you, which is bloody but probably not wrong. Is this what was being suggested earlier? What issues does it have?
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Old 07-18-2018, 06:48 PM   #2
Rick_Smith
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Coquitlam B.C.
Default Re: Phasing for falling down/standing up

Hi Steve, everyone.
What I suggested before has worked very well for my campaign. These rules have been tested for years.

If you fall down due to damage, you lose your option for this turn (if you have not already taken it), and stand up next turn during the action phase.

If you fall down for any other reason than damage, you may stand up in the current option phase. If you have already used your option this turn, you may stand up during movement next turn.

***

These rules are more complex (two paragraphs rather than one), but it makes being knocked down due to damage, deadly dangerous. But falling because of a trip, or spell, a dragon's tail sweep, is not so awful.

Warm regards, Rick.
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Old 07-18-2018, 06:59 PM   #3
Dave Crowell
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Default Re: Phasing for falling down/standing up

the only thing that bugs me a little is the advantaging of people with a lower DEX than you on the turn you fall down. It feels odd that less nimble folks would be the ones able to take advantage. But it is not a big enough bug to be worth changing the rule over. Any solution I can think of would result in a much more complicated rule for little gain. KISS - Keep It Simple Steve

Is the proposed change is to stand up during Movement Phase rather than during Action Phase? It makes sense to me that standing up would be a movement. Would a figure who stands up be able to act in the subsequent Action Phase or standing up still be their only action for the turn?

Either way I think allowing the person who knocked you down to get a +4 swing at you seems realistic.

Last edited by Dave Crowell; 07-18-2018 at 07:07 PM.
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Old 07-18-2018, 09:00 PM   #4
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Phasing for falling down/standing up

I think the most parsimonious solution is to declare standing up to be an action that is only permitted to combatants who move 0 or 1 hex per turn (and, obviously, who start the turn on the ground). That slots it neatly into an existing category of actions, and gives high DX foes a chance to take their shot. If someone takes the 'move 1' option, presumably that is someone rolling or crawling a meter or so as they get up.
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Old 07-18-2018, 11:36 PM   #5
David Bofinger
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Sydney, Australia
Default Re: Phasing for falling down/standing up

I can see your idea would be cleaner. But being knocked down is already pretty nasty, and more or less a recipe for a fatality. Hardly anyone gets up from it. Do you really want to make it worse?

I wonder if there's ways to make it not quite as bad. For instance, maybe any time someone gets hit they have the option to demand they be retreated straight back, as though they'd been forced to retreat. Maybe when I get knocked down I can choose to be knocked back a hex as well so others can fill the line in front of me. Maybe I don't give away the +4 until the end of the turn. And other enemies might want to advance after into the gap, if they weren't pinned. This idea would need a lot of work to clean it up to publishable quality. But I think it's worth thinking of ways to make knockdowns less fatal.
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Old 07-18-2018, 11:56 PM   #6
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Phasing for falling down/standing up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post
You fall down either during movement, when you make a bad die roll on bad footing, or in combat, when you get hit for 8 points or more.
... or if you fall due to a Trip spell, net, lasso, whip, dragon tail, aimed attack to your leg, critical hit, shield rush, or UC throw attack, being forced to retreat with nowhere to retreat to, falling off a horse, a multi-hex figure shifting into your hex and knocking you down, or being engaged in HTH combat.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post
Assuming you survive, you stand up during the movement phase.
Only in basic Melee and Wizard.

In Advanced Melee, you changed (I would say corrected) the rules for standing up, which is consistently represented in three places (AM page 3 stand up option, page 5 sentence 2, and page 18 Reactions To Injury). In AM, the rule is you can stand up on the turn after you fell, when your adjDX action comes up.

Another change in AM is you can move one hex during the Movement Phase on a turn you are taking the option to stand up. Basic Melee/Wizard do not let you change hexes when standing up.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post
As it stands, if you are knocked down in combat, only those opponents whose DX is lower than yours will get a +4 hack at you.
In basic Melee & Wizard, yes, but not in Advanced Melee.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post
If you stand up during the COMBAT phase of your turn, the person who knocked you down will get a +4 swing at you, which is bloody but probably not wrong. Is this what was being suggested earlier? What issues does it have?
Close but not entirely. It's what Advanced Melee says, too.

A few comments on what you wrote:

1) In the previous thread, I thought you were saying if you knock down a slower foe, they can get up that same turn as their action. (That's something a player might think is true, but would be even worse.)

2) It's not quite as bloody as you just wrote. Even with the Advanced Melee version, if your adj DX is less than the foe you knocked down's adj DX, he can still get up before you will get a chance to attack him at +4. Even with the Advanced Melee version, this makes using Shield Rush, UC throw, or the Trip spell unable to let you follow up with an attack on people with higher adjDX than you.

If you revert to the basic Melee / Wizard sequence where people stand up during Movement, then not only do you get the "only slower friends capitalize" bug, and the "you never get to hit the foe you knocked down while he's down" problem, but you also need to win initiative in order to get to not be immediately re-Engaged by the foe you just knocked down. By moving it to the action phase, at least you get to not be engaged by just-toppled foes during the Movement Phase. That at least makes Shield Rush, Trip, etc have some possible use even to people with lower adjDX than their targets.

It also means you don't need to write on the advanced unarmed combat talents that they get the ability to enter HTH with people they throw, because they can do that during Movement against a prone opponent according to Advanced Melee.

If it were me, I'd even consider making a person who has already taken their action and then later that turn gets knocked down, lose his next action during the next turn, because then even lower-adjDX figures would be able to follow up a knockdown with a +4 attack. But I've not playtested that, and it would make people lose two movement phases when they fall after having acted... unless you let them stand up as a last action of that next turn.

The only disadvantages I see to using the Advanced Melee version are:

1) People who only ever used the basic Melee / Wizard version may be attached to doing it that way.

2) Some people may be unhappy to more frequently experience being killed while lying in the dirt. (There is a whole camp (of non-TFT RPG players, anyway) that doesn't like effects of injury, but I think it's a hallmark of TFT and falling down should be a big deal which has important effects, not something you take risks to achieve and then your opponent automatically undoes as the next thing that happens.)

3) Some people may see it as more complex?

Last edited by Skarg; 07-19-2018 at 12:01 AM.
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Old 07-19-2018, 01:28 AM   #7
schoon
 
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Location: Oakland, CA, USA
Default Re: Phasing for falling down/standing up

Yeah - seems counter intuitive to me that those with lower DX would get a free shot.
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Old 07-19-2018, 02:20 AM   #8
zot
 
Join Date: May 2018
Default Re: Phasing for falling down/standing up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post
If you stand up during the COMBAT phase of your turn, the person who knocked you down will get a +4 swing at you, which is bloody but probably not wrong. Is this what was being suggested earlier? What issues does it have?
Stand up during the combat phase of the NEXT turn is what the AM rules say (and Skarg has pointed out):
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reactions to Injury
A figure which takes 8 or more hits in one turn IMMEDIATELY falls down. If it has not already attacked, it may not attack that turn. It may do nothing NEXT turn except stand up (or stay down).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawling, Kneeling, and Lying Prone
A figure that falls assumes the prone position involuntarily and may do NOTHING next turn except (either) stand up or crawl, or attempt a spell.
The current AM rules give +4 DX to people slower than the attacker and no advantage to people who are faster than the attacker but slower than the victim (if the victim is faster than the attacker).

What about just making it +4 DX to hit someone who STARTED MOVEMENT PRONE? That gives every attacker a +4 and slower people won't get a +4 on the same turn someone fell down.

Last edited by zot; 07-19-2018 at 02:38 AM. Reason: amendment
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Old 07-19-2018, 06:13 AM   #9
RobW
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Default Re: Phasing for falling down/standing up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarg View Post

The only disadvantages I see to using the Advanced Melee version are:
...
2) Some people may be unhappy to more frequently experience being killed while lying in the dirt.
...
True, but they will also have more chance to enjoy killing foes lying in the dirt.

For me, working out how to knock down opponents is the most important tactical consideration in the game. If either rule for standing messed this up that would be bad, but both rules work well. I've mainly played with the "stand during movement" rule, but I'll be happy to permanently switch.
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Old 07-19-2018, 09:38 AM   #10
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Phasing for falling down/standing up

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobW View Post
True, but they will also have more chance to enjoy killing foes lying in the dirt.

For me, working out how to knock down opponents is the most important tactical consideration in the game. If either rule for standing messed this up that would be bad, but both rules work well. I've mainly played with the "stand during movement" rule, but I'll be happy to permanently switch.
I agree!

I listed three possible ways to see using the AM stand up sequence as negative, but I don't see any of them as disadvantages as a player myself. Just things I can imagine other players possibly not liking.

Getting benefits from successful attacks (the -2 penalty and knocking them down, mainly, but also creating fallen body terrain and forcing retreats and capitalizing on not being engaged next turn) are the main ways to gain an edge in TFT. They are some of the main things that make TFT an interesting tactical game compared to other RPGs that use a map but lack suck effects.
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