Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > The Fantasy Trip

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-21-2018, 12:49 PM   #1
hcobb
 
hcobb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Pacheco, California
Default Shield-Rush is pointless?

If you fall down from a shield-rush do you still get an action to stand up the end of that same turn? Do you drop your weapon when you fall over?
__________________
-HJC
hcobb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2018, 02:32 PM   #2
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Shield-Rush is pointless?

I would say no, and no to both questions.

But I think it would be possible to read the existing rules as saying that if you have not taken your action yet, and fall due to a shield rush, you can switch to Change Positions and stand up at the end of the same Action Phase.

The reaction to injury rule makes it clear that you can't do that if you fall due to damage. I would extend that to ALL ways you could fall down (shield rush, tripping over a body, trip spell, getting tackled into HTH even if a friend then kills the person you were in HTH with before turn end) so that the sequence for standing up is always the same, and so that it's never inconsequential.

But it's not crystal clear as far as I see in the current rules.
Skarg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2018, 04:11 PM   #3
Anaraxes
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Default Re: Shield-Rush is pointless?

Note that the description of the option for Stand Up says that you stand up at the end of the combat phase. Recall that everyone moves (the movement phase), then everyone attacks (the combat phase). Also recall that you pick your turn option at the start of your turn in the movement phase.

So, if you were planning to attack a faster shield-rusher, you picked "Charge Attack" (or some other option that allows attacks). You both move so as to wind up adjacent (or perhaps were already engaged). The shield rusher hits and knocks you down in his turn in the combat phase. Now it's your turn in the combat phase. You can't attack because you're prone. You can't stand up (yet) because you didn't pick the Stand Up option back in the movement phase. The combat phase ends; the turn ends.

Next turn, the shield rusher moves. Maybe he moves away (you're no longer engaging him), or maybe he gloats and takes an attack option to capitalize on your prone state. Let's go with the latter. You take the Stand Up option. Shield rusher can move, but he wants to stay next to you. You can't crawl away, because you're engaged. So nobody actually moves (other than a shift). Combat phase begins. Shield rusher goes. He attacks you with the bonus for you being prone. You go; Stand Up forbids attacks, so it's mostly irrelevant in this phase. The combat phase ends. As the rule says, now you actually change state from prone to standing; the turn ends.

In short, a auccessful shield rush costs you an attack or move, and gives your opponent(s) an opportunity to attack you while you're prone. That's not a good thing.

Possible misunderstandings might be thinking that you get to choose an option immediately after the shield rush is successful. Not so; options are chosen earlier. Another error would be thinking that you become "standing" at the end of your movement phase. Also not so, as Stand Up explicitly says "end of the combat phase". There's also not an extra "action at the end of that same turn". There's no extra action granted, and you only stand up if you took the option Stand Up at your previous opportunity. It says "Rise...at the end of the combat phase" -- not the end of your movement phase. Nor do you choose an option at the beginning of your turn in the combat phase; you pick options at the start of your turn in the movement phase (see Melee p5), and that option controls your possible behavior in both movement and combat phases.

So, in short, you'll be down for at least one full combat phase even if you choose Stand Up at the earliest opportunity.
Anaraxes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2018, 05:56 PM   #4
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Shield-Rush is pointless?

Options are declared during movement, but figures can change options to respond to changing circumstances unless noted otherwise.

From page 6 of the current Melee draft:
Quote:
The options
available to a fgure depend on whether it is engaged, disengaged, or
in HTH combat at the moment its turn to move comes. During a turn, a
player may change his mind about a fgure’s option, as long as
• that fgure has not yet acted, and
• that fgure did not move too far to allow it to take the new option.
I think falling down should count as your action in all cases, and falling from getting injured 8 points says you can't act in that case, but it seems likely that some people may be confused and/or argue that ONLY damage uses up your action, but other figures who fall before taking their action should be able to stand at the end of the same turn's action phase.

As before, it wants clarification for all types of falling, including:

* shield rush falling
* tripping on bodies
* intentional falling
* the Trip spell
...
Skarg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2018, 10:10 PM   #5
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Shield-Rush is pointless?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
I think falling down should count as your action in all cases, and falling from getting injured 8 points says you can't act in that case, but it seems likely that some people may be confused and/or argue that ONLY damage uses up your action, but other figures who fall before taking their action should be able to stand at the end of the same turn's action phase.
Oh, actually I found a clarifying rule in the new rules:
Quote:
Originally Posted by new Wizard page 5
If any fgure is killed or knocked down before its turn to act comes, it
does not get to act that turn.
Though the new Melee doesn't say it like that, and AFAIK is still unclear as I mentioned in the previous post. i.e. in the corresponding place to quote above, Melee reads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by new Melee page 6
If a fgure is killed or takes 8 or more hits in one turn
before its time to attack comes, it does not get to attack that turn.

Wizard page 8 (and not Melee) has a section on lying, kneeling, prone, which also says:
Quote:
Originally Posted by new Wizard page 8
A fgure which falls assumes the prone position involuntarily and may do
nothing next turn except (either) stand up or crawl.

Last edited by Skarg; 09-21-2018 at 10:27 PM.
Skarg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2018, 05:56 AM   #6
Anaraxes
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Default Re: Shield-Rush is pointless?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
Oh, actually I found a clarifying rule in the new rules:
Nice. I'd looked only in Melee. (And also noticed the gap with the rule about taking enough damage to get knocked down. I didn't find anything in Melee that explicitly says you can't attack while you're prone, but that does seem to be implied by the lack of a penalty, if nothing else.)

Also an interesting question just from the question of evolution of TFT into GURPS. A GURPS turn is entirely different from a TFT turn.
Anaraxes is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:59 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.