Combining Damage Multipliers

[WhiteLily]

So if I hit a target in the eye with impaling damage, that's x4. And if I roll a critical hit, and score triple damage, is that x12?

Other systems I played in had specific rules that combining multiples would move the multiplier up by addition instead of multiplication. So, in Pathfinder, a x2 and a x4 would equal a single x5 multiplier.

But I don't recall reading anything about damage multiplication in the rules.

[Imbicatus]

You would apply triple damage from the critical hit head blow result to find the base damage. That damage is then multiplied by the wounding modifier for the the damage type of x4.

[ericbsmith]

Originally Posted by Imbicatus

You would apply triple damage from the critical hit head blow result to find the base damage. That damage is then multiplied by the wounding modifier for the the damage type of x4.

This. And this is important because DR is applied between when you multiply the base damage and when when applying the wounding multiplier. For instance, Imp to the Torso is x2 damage. Lets assume you roll triple damage on a critical success, the target has DR4, and you roll a base damage of 3.

First, your base damage is tripled from 3 to 9; next DR4 is subtracted, giving 9-4=5 penetrating damage; last that is doubled for a total of 10 damage being applied to the targets HP.

[Rupert]

The results of critical hits multiply the base damage (or just assign maximum rollable damage). This occurs before DR is applied.

The hit location multipliers replace the normal ones for the given damage type (on B399, for example, it says that the wounding multiplier for a skull hit increases to times four).

As a damage type's wounding modifier multiplies basic damage (after DR) to get injury, a critical hit damage multiplier is then (after DR) multiplied by the wounding modifier (for damage type and hit location). Thus a x3 damage critical hit to the eye (which has no DR) will do 3 x 4 = 12 times the basic rolled damage.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Rupert

a damage type's wounding modifier multiplies basic damage (after DR) to get injury

Basic Damage is before DR, resulting in Penetrating Damage after it.

Originally Posted by Rupert

Thus a x3 damage critical hit to the eye (which has no DR) will do 3 x 4 = 12 times the basic rolled damage.

Eyes should be reworked, the x4 wounding multiplier after all is for the brain. It assumes the eye is a portal to the brain, but you can have 'No Brain' and still have eyes.

Eyes are crippled by doing more than HP/10 to them, which implies they have an HP separate from the brain, so that HP should act like ablative cover DR for the brain. Probably the HP required to DESTROY the eye (HP/5).

Being able to damage the brain without destroying the eye is strange.

I also think the part of the skull behind the eye (sphenoid) could count as 1/2 the usual skull DR like chinks.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Plane

Eyes should be reworked, the x4 wounding multiplier after all is for the brain. It assumes the eye is a portal to the brain, but you can have 'No Brain' and still have eyes.

Eyes are crippled by doing more than HP/10 to them, which implies they have an HP separate from the brain, so that HP should act like ablative cover DR for the brain. Probably the HP required to DESTROY the eye (HP/5).

Being able to damage the brain without destroying the eye is strange.

I also think the part of the skull behind the eye (sphenoid) could count as 1/2 the usual skull DR like chinks.

That's a whole different issue.

My biggest concern is that with a x4 multiplier any damage to an eye (unless you have 20+ HP) will not merely cripple it but destroy it. My solution is to use damage to check for eye crippling, not injury. As for the getting to the brain part, if the eye isn't crippled, I wouldn't count it as a brain hit for damage multiplication.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Rupert

That's a whole different issue.

My biggest concern is that with a x4 multiplier any damage to an eye (unless you have 20+ HP) will not merely cripple it but destroy it. My solution is to use damage to check for eye crippling, not injury. As for the getting to the brain part, if the eye isn't crippled, I wouldn't count it as a brain hit for damage multiplication.

Should also be option to shoot through eyes without hitting brain, like aiming directly from side through bridge of nose.

Another thing is you should be able to aim at the skull THROUGH the face rather than directly at skull

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by Rupert

That's a whole different issue.

My biggest concern is that with a x4 multiplier any damage to an eye (unless you have 20+ HP) will not merely cripple it but destroy it. My solution is to use damage to check for eye crippling, not injury. As for the getting to the brain part, if the eye isn't crippled, I wouldn't count it as a brain hit for damage multiplication.

I don't have a problem with any Gurps level damage obliterating the eye. A single hit point is massive. It's 1/5th that required to break the femur of a young man by way of a lasting crippling injury.

Even a zero point attack should have some chance of crippling the eye, IMO. But as blinding a character is rarely fun, I'm not really pushing for that.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Rupert

My solution is to use damage to check for eye crippling, not injury

This seems to be consistent with MA71 Eye-Gouging unless you have Long Thumbs perk (or Talons).

I think the more elegant solution is just give eyes 1/10 HP (have never liked the "more" bit of crippling TBH) worth of "cover DR" for what's behind it, then apply the multiplier to the Penetrating Damage after subtracting it

MA136's Extreme Dismemberment sets a precedent that the cover DR supplied by body parts is equal to the amount required to cripple them (rather than destroy them) which also happens to be the maximum amount of HP you can lose from having that limb hit. This what I think should be used in cases where big damage is done to stuff other than the torso.

HT162 gives injury a torso (HP if using bleeding, which is what I'll go with) from impale/pierce/TBburn. There's no cap on other types (crushing/cuttin/corrosion/fatigue/wideburning). I think it would be a cool idea to do that for cutting though.

Given that cutting actually has to inflict HALF the amount of injury needed to sever a limb, I'm thinking it should have DOUBLE the usual cap of damage: 2x HP, and provide double the usual amount of cover DR.

That's just "standard torso" in mind though. There should be exceptions to allow greater injury when targeting torso sublocations. Here's ideas for those rules:

1) just as MA137 allows crushing attacks to target Vitals at -3 (solar plexus or kidneys) allow this for cutting too. Like crushing this will not change the damage multiplier (nor the max HP loss) like crushing would create a HT roll for any damage that causes shock (at -5 for major wounds) and use MA138's "Severe Bleeding" rules creating more subsequent HP loss over time which is NOT subject to injury caps (ie how people can die of slit wrists)

2) per MA138's "Lasting and Permanent Injuries" a major wound to vitals requires rolling on MA139's table

3) allow attacks to target the lumbar spine (MA136) from the front or side instead of just the back. Increase the usual penalty by -2 due to it being behind more cover than from the rear (that would be -2... if he usual -8 seems extreme to you, you're not alone, IMO let the spine be targeted at -3 like vitals or pelvis!)

Since the "100% HP" cover DR of the torso assumes both front and back, have only 50% of the usual cover DR of the torso protect the spine. Count injury to the spine via a SEPARATE cap. Overpenetrating the spine requires inflicting twice the HP loss needed to cripple it (2x HP) plus also surpassing the DR 3 "on the way out" (just like armor). Then you can target the "back torso HP" (remaining 50% you had ignored, initially) by subtracting from your original roll the 50% cover DR of the "front torso HP", plus DR 6 from spine enter/exit, plus 100% HP crippling threshold of spine. Anything beyond that applies HPx2+6 cover DR to things behind you.

4) allow the cervical spine to be targeted from the front too. This is the lesser-known "1 on a 1d" result from targeting the neck from behind with crushing attacks under MA137's "Notes for Existing Hit Locations" for causing Quadriplegic (B150) instead of Paraplegic. In either case, extensive blood loss is going to happen from SEVERING a spine rather than crippling it: MA138's "Dismemberment" notes for Severe Bleeding. Reversin to normal bleeding rules happens only after HP lost to bleeding surpasses injury required to cripple, which is twice that of limbs.

I don't see a problem in allowing overpenetration for cutting. It's plausibly to chop through someone's torso without killing them: this doesn't have to mean you're severing the spine.

This is a fair criticism for necks too: it should be possible to "overpenetrate" a neck (slice through it, hit something behind it) without decapitation. It can just represent passing through the meat surrounding the neck

B408's "Overpenetration" rules I think assume by default it's the torso that's hit.

One other option weirdly not explored: cutting through a limb to hit the torso instead of the 2nd limb. That shouldn't be allowed for legs, but it sounds reasonable for arms...

Obviously rules from there should probably affect body part "cover DR" too: 1/2 cover DR for unliving, 1/4 cover DR for homogenous. This matches B380's reduction of injury from impaling and huge piercing. Doesn't exactly match the large/normal/small piercing reductions, but whatev.

That's in earlier rules a moot point for Extreme Dismemberment (unliving and homogenous still take normal cutting damage) but important later since HT162 introduced option for impaling/piercing/TBburn to dismember limbs. In that case it would seem reasonable to also allow ED with them too, but maybe at a higher penalty than just -1 since you'd need to be more exact with your approach angle.

Speaking of which, maybe there should be a penalty on the 1st roll too? A lot of cutting attacks to limbs simply wouldn't be at a proper angle to continue and cut the other.

For even-after-LT-still-non-dismembering crippling it seems useful: it should probably be possible to smash one leg so hard with a crushing attack that it caves in and your extra force carries on to smash the other leg. Maybe not with energy attacks (burning/corrosion) though.

I will note that this extrapolation is already bending the rules, because Cutting is not one of the damage types listed as having Overpenetration (IE you cannot throw an axe through 1 guy to hit the guy behind him, it ALWAYS stops) plus this is also intended just for ranged attacks (ie it's technically illegal to use a melee attack with a spear to stab through 1 foe into a foe behind them: it's only legal if you THROW the spear) but I think if the foe behind is in range (sharing hex, or maybe you have a dual-range weapon) it's within the spirit to float OP rules to melee too. That's the precedent which EDM hints at.

- - -

This also seems relevant in trying to do Extreme Dismemberment vs a Diffuse target. Since their cover DR is not discussed, the best assumption seems to be "reduce it in the same way their injury from impaling/Hpiercing is": which is simply "reduce it to 1 HP".

If the torso of a diffuse target has Cover DR 1 against most attacks then I guess limbs would have Cover DR 0.5.

Diffuse targets should probably give full cover DR against area effect attacks though (since they take full damage from them)

Unlike ED it's not going to take a 2nd hit roll though, because the eye is so protected that it just assumes the only way to hit the eye is to attack at an angle that the brain must lie behind it. "directly behind" cover DR doesn't use new rolls to determine hits.

[Plane]

[QUOTE=Flyndaran;2343974
Even a zero point attack should have some chance of crippling the eye, IMO. [/QUOTE]

I think that's what Eye Rake represents