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Old 09-17-2020, 04:01 PM   #11
JulianLW
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Default Re: Skills or Techniques for Abilities at Default

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Originally Posted by Ejidoth View Post
So, out of the box, you normally can't just use TK Crush because you have a different TK ability. It's a separate thing. That said, if a GM allowed a TK Crush technique for TK Grab, it would be at -2 per 25% of the value of TK Grab. Mechanically, it would work exactly like using TK Crush directly, except you'd pay the extra FP, the technique penalty would apply to your roll, and you'd use your TK Grab skill.

To be clear, this part of Psionic Powers differs from the abilities at default thing Powers uses. You're not making a Will roll followed by a separate skill roll to use the new ability, you're making a single skill roll with the technique.

TK Crush is 5/level while TK Grab is 7/level, so at just under 75%, a level-for-level substitute technique would be rolled at TK Grab-6. So in the contest of will against the opponent, you'd be rolling TK Grab-6 vs. their will, instead of TK Crush vs their will.
I mean, this makes sense to me. I just hadn't realized how different this was from the Powers rules. However, it seems to me that the roll to use Crush in this case should be against the better of your default TK Crush skill OR TK Grab-6, but in either case, if you haven't invested in TK Crush as a default of TK Grab, you should have to make that TK Grab-6 roll first. I think that, in the absence of an established technique - if you're just making up a default on the fly - there need to be two rolls - if not two separate FP expenditures. I didn't even get into the fact that these techniques based on AAD should be 5 FP rather than 2 FP.
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Old 09-19-2020, 12:32 PM   #12
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: Skills or Techniques for Abilities at Default

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Originally Posted by JulianLW View Post
Apply another -2 if the two abilities aren’t of the same general type – both attacks, both defenses, both communications abilities, etc." (Powers 173).
Thanks I see it now. Stared right at that last time and it didn't register.

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Originally Posted by JulianLW View Post
no option to buy off this penalty with a technique, according to RAW in Powers)
PP9 assumes only Temporary Enhancements being used (2 FP, etc)

However... even though Using Abilities at Default doesn't appear to be called out in Psionic Powers... I think it actually DID get used...

PP29 has weird techs for Astral Travel (metatrait of modified Insubstantialiy and Invisibility) which I don't think are possibly via just enhancements on those underlying traits.

Astral Crossing (-8) seems like Jumper (World) or Jumper (Spirit)
Cloaking (-8) seems like Metamorphosis

Even though RAW both of those would use the 2 FP for Temporary Enhancements, they really sound like they ought to use the 3 FP for Using Abilities at Default.

Otherwise, I really want to understand what new underlying enhancements these are because I don't have a clue. -1 per +10% means they should be +80% enhancements.

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Originally Posted by JulianLW View Post
and THEN, apparently, you would have to roll vs. Innate Attack at a penalty of -8. (Oh, and if you're using the Psionic PM rules from Psionic Powers, that default use of Innate Attack would cost another 2 FP, since it'd technically be a technique of the original power.)
I don't think so, the 2 FP for psi-techniques is just Temporary Enhancements fee, there's no added fee.

If UAAD was allowed as psi-techs too (my speculation for Astral Crossing and Cloaking) then I think it'd just be the 3 FP as usual.

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Originally Posted by JulianLW View Post
And here's a further question: does "Skills for Everyone" on Powers 162 mean that Innate Attack becomes a Hard skill when applied to an ability with a Power Modifier?
I don't think it should:
a power skill exists for any ability – passive or active – that requires an activation roll (not just an attack roll). This is a Hard skill
Using the Innate Attack skill is "just an attack roll" so you'd use it as normally defined in Basic Set.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JulianLW View Post
Looking at the TK Crush skill in Psionic Powers, it certainly appears that way.
PP54 enhances Crushing Attack with Malediction. Malediction removes the use of the Innate Attack as your 'hit' roll, instead you just roll against Will.

This means it's a bit harder to improve your accuracy (Will is 5/level, attack skills are at most 4/level)

Although I could see someone arguing that "only for attacking with maledictions" is worth some kind of discount on Will that you buy up (probably bigger than the -20% for Combat Only) so there might be no large long-term drawbacks.

B201's DX Easy means 2 points to get it up to DX+1 4 points to DX+2, so if they did tie at 4/level beyond that, IA's advantage is merely +2 to hit (well, more if you Aim unless you buy that down w/ Inaccurate limitation)

Probably the biggest benefit is shifting from expensive DX (20) to Will (5) in terms of base attributes.

It's laughable seeing "based on IQ +20%" taken there, that's really only a benefit for people who buy their Will attribute below their IQ, isn't it? How often does that happen for psis?

Given that "requies will roll" is -5% and "requires IQ roll" is -10%, I think shifting from a cheap secondary attribute to an expensive one should perhaps not cost the full +20%. Maybe only +10% assuming you don't make it a 0% feature or even a limitation.

Never noticed "Must stare intently and directly at the subject". I guess I always assumed you did that kinda thing when attacking others. Maybe that's not the case only for Maledictions since it doesn't require looking at targets if you have some other means of sensing where they are?
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Old 09-19-2020, 05:17 PM   #13
Ejidoth
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Default Re: Skills or Techniques for Abilities at Default

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Even though RAW both of those would use the 2 FP for Temporary Enhancements, they really sound like they ought to use the 3 FP for Using Abilities at Default.
Again, Psionic Powers is a worked example that varies things a bit from the Powers baseline. In this case, I'm guessing 'everything is 2 FP' was considered important enough that the relatively rare 3-FP-according-to-Powers tricks were allowed to be 2 FP.

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Using the Innate Attack skill is "just an attack roll" so you'd use it as normally defined in Basic Set.
This is another case where Psionic Powers' specific system breaks from the generic Powers suggestions, I think. TK Bullet is a Hard skill that's not malediction based.

This is partly because Psionic Powers rolls the activation roll into the attack roll, as a single thing. Using Flat Edge to do pi+ damage, for example, is a direct -2 to the attack roll, rather than -2 to an activation roll followed by a normal attack roll next turn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
It's laughable seeing "based on IQ +20%" taken there, that's really only a benefit for people who buy their Will attribute below their IQ, isn't it? How often does that happen for psis?
Part of the price for all the cool bonuses (access to using abilities at default, generous extra effort rules, etc.) that you get for sticking to a defined power set (Psionic Powers, Sorcery, etc.) is that you have to stick to the occasionally sub-optimal system the powers are using.
TK Grab is IQ-based, so all the direct thematic spinoffs (TK Crush, TK Bullet, PK Shield, Levitation) are also IQ-based for consistency, and you have to pay for that even if you don't want it. IQ is just how the system is handling 'telekinetic dexterity' overall. Sort of like how Sorcery always has to include its 1 FP cost, even if you'd really like to have some of your spells be freely spammable.

Last edited by Ejidoth; 09-19-2020 at 05:27 PM.
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Old 09-19-2020, 10:47 PM   #14
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: Skills or Techniques for Abilities at Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ejidoth View Post
This is another case where Psionic Powers' specific system breaks from the generic Powers suggestions, I think. TK Bullet is a Hard skill that's not malediction based.
PP53 is a strange design indeed. I'm not even sure "Based on IQ" on an attack advantage to shift what attribute the skill it rolls against is based on is even accurate.

It's certainly not the most cost efficient: you could do that with merely a Skill Adaptation perk. One example is in Magical Styles where you roll against your Missile Spell skill a 2nd time to hit instead of Innate Attack DX.

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Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
This is partly because Psionic Powers rolls the activation roll into the attack roll, as a single thing. Using Flat Edge to do pi+ damage, for example, is a direct -2 to the attack roll, rather than -2 to an activation roll followed by a normal attack roll next turn.
that IS different... didn't notice that but yeah, the Powers way to do it is spend a Concentrate prepping that enhancement prior to your one-shot use.

To just ignore the Concentrate like that ought to require buying Reduced Time to make the Temporary Enhancements attempts a free action.

If they want to combine the two rolls and their penalties (much like Affliction/Warp does in Exoteleport) I guess that's fine but that would not mean combining their activation times unless either TE was free action or you took link+10% on both
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