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Old 07-09-2018, 11:53 PM   #11
William
 
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Default Re: Can a Destiean Sabotage someones future to avert their fate?

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Originally Posted by chaotic-nipple View Post
I'm not so sure of that. Could David Ben-Gurian have ever found his Destiny, if Adolf Hitler hadn't succumbed to his fate?
In any game of In Nomine I GM'ed, the answer to that question would be 'yes': Ben-Gurion's Destiny, affected by human events as well as affecting them, would simply have been realizeable in some other way. Perhaps he would have managed to found a new state of Israel without a Holocaust.

My interpretation of the morality of Destiny and Fate in this game would be that inducing the damnation of any human (that is, pushing them toward their Fate, not the killing of a dangerous human who has already met their Fate) will never be a benefit to them or any other human. Any angel who espoused the notion in anything other than the most academic philosophical exploration would be cruising for investigation, trial and fundamental behavioral intervention. Any who were found to have engaged in this activity with living humans would be in jeopardy of execution.

Stress and testing, yes, with the intention of purifying or strengthening a human. Consciously damning one person in an attempt to improve the lot of another, never.

At this point, however, we reach the level of personal interpretation. If in your In Nomine, it is occasionally necessary to damn one to save others, that is your game.
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Old 07-28-2018, 04:48 PM   #12
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Default Re: Can a Destiean Sabotage someones future to avert their fate?

As a note, regarding the Malphas quote... Malphas is Factions, not Fate. Many humans whose lives are derailed by demonic influence do not necessarily go to Hell -- though they are unlikely to wind up achieving destinies, either, and are likely to derail other humans and/or encourage conditions for humans to "freely" go after their own fates.

(Trying to "push" someone to fate -- or destiny -- is very, very difficult, tricky, and liable to backfire. Without an actual Hellsworn contract or the like, a lot of demonic stuff is more about the "splash" that makes the world a nastier, more selfish place. The direct victims of demonic meddling are more likely to reincarnate. It's a bit like Tethers, really...)

Though, as above and as always, the GM sets the rules of the Universe. O:>

(Personally, I think Yves is perhaps being optimistic because he knows it'd drive Malphas up a wall. >_> )
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Old 07-29-2018, 02:57 AM   #13
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Default Re: Can a Destiean Sabotage someones future to avert their fate?

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Originally Posted by Archangel Beth View Post
(Personally, I think Yves is perhaps being optimistic because he knows it'd drive Malphas up a wall. >_> )
I reckon he's turning Factions against itself, by pointing out that a dark faction can drive the development of a faction devoted to honour and justice. Many demonic words contain the seeds of their own downfall.
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Old 07-29-2018, 09:35 PM   #14
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Default Re: Can a Destiean Sabotage someones future to avert their fate?

oh on the Shedite thing?

is it safe to say that many angels in particular a malakim ordered to use his resonance on a renegade shedite and evaluate him for redemption wsill immediately summon their superior, rather then wait through years of training and coaching?
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Old 07-29-2018, 11:33 PM   #15
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Default Re: Can a Destiean Sabotage someones future to avert their fate?

Well, I guess it depends on the result of his evaluation of the Shedite's redemption chances.

He's not going to let the Shedite ruin any humans' lives. Even if the Shedite is making an honorable effort to avoid doing so, I would imagine this would be very challenging for all the reasons discussed in this thread. But if the Shedite is making an honorable effort not to damn humans, it has jumped one of the most serious hurdles to Redemption -- it's thinking about someone other than itself. That suggests that it would have as good a chance as any demon of surviving a Redemption attempt.

A long period of coaching would be putting a lot of humans at risk from the Shedite's bad habits. Much easier, yes, to approach the Shedite openly and offer a Redemption attempt via one's Superior. Coaching away any bad habits can come afterward, when the Shedite is a Kyriotate.

If the Shedite is not making an honorable effort to avoid damning humans, of course, then it's just a Renegade Shedite with little chance of surviving a Redemption attempt and should be sent to Limbo or somehow captured.
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Old 07-30-2018, 03:28 PM   #16
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Default Re: Can a Destiean Sabotage someones future to avert their fate?

What William said. Note that a sufficiently big Force Catcher can be a good solution to any form of needing to contain a Shedite in such a way as to communicate with it without letting it muck around in a human host. O;>
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Old 07-31-2018, 10:00 AM   #17
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Default Re: Can a Destiean Sabotage someones future to avert their fate?

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Well, I guess it depends on the result of his evaluation of the Shedite's redemption chances.

He's not going to let the Shedite ruin any humans' lives. Even if the Shedite is making an honorable effort to avoid doing so, I would imagine this would be very challenging for all the reasons discussed in this thread. But if the Shedite is making an honorable effort not to damn humans, it has jumped one of the most serious hurdles to Redemption -- it's thinking about someone other than itself. That suggests that it would have as good a chance as any demon of surviving a Redemption attempt.

A long period of coaching would be putting a lot of humans at risk from the Shedite's bad habits. Much easier, yes, to approach the Shedite openly and offer a Redemption attempt via one's Superior. Coaching away any bad habits can come afterward, when the Shedite is a Kyriotate.

If the Shedite is not making an honorable effort to avoid damning humans, of course, then it's just a Renegade Shedite with little chance of surviving a Redemption attempt and should be sent to Limbo or somehow captured.
And then there's the poor Renegade Shedite of the Game who lives in down the street in that nice Catholic couple.

He's very, very sorry for the harm he's done. He loves his Servants very much and does whatever he can to help them. But he has a very strong sense of individuality, and Kryios are not. Redemption will mean loss of self, and this scares the poor Shedite to souldeath.

What would *you* do?
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Old 08-05-2018, 09:31 AM   #18
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Default Re: Can a Destiean Sabotage someones future to avert their fate?

a Shedite Renegade will actualy take SOUL hits just from being without a Vessel for too long.

once he's redeemed he can possibly 'grounded' upstairs a few years, so he learns how to go about things properly and to keep him from bad influences

(In fact, I'd wager thats what happens to 90% of NPC Redeemed. only needs of a game and continuity keep it from happening to PC's)
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Old 08-06-2018, 08:16 PM   #19
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Default Re: Can a Destiean Sabotage someones future to avert their fate?

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Originally Posted by thorr-kan View Post
And then there's the poor Renegade Shedite of the Game [...]
He's very, very sorry for the harm he's done. He loves his Servants very much and does whatever he can to help them. But he has a very strong sense of individuality, and Kryios are not. Redemption will mean loss of self, and this scares the poor Shedite to souldeath.

What would *you* do?
Well, if you mean what I, personally, as a GM would do... I would say the PCs should bring in some Kyriotates to talk to the poor thing and reassure it that multiplicity isn't loss of self. (Well, any more than the demon-to-angel conversion has normally, anyway.) You're still a person afterwards! The Symphony does not puppet you! We are a totally individual Kyriotate! And so is them over there -- oh, wait, she's just in one host and prefers pronouns to agree with host numbers. And you can even have a better grasp of boundaries, like not rummaging around in your host's memories too much, or not even using humans at all! Wouldn't that be nice, to not have to confuse your friends anymore? Here, we can set you up with a Force Catcher that you're attuned to, and you can even talk with it! (This is my favorite Kyriotate hack, BTW. FAVORITE hack.)

Multiplicity doesn't mean you lose who you are -- it just means that "who you are" gets so much bigger! </KyrioEnthusiasm>

Of course, the ability to surrender self and trust you'll get it back is a whole thing in the In Nomine setting, soooooooo the Shedite isn't entirely wrong, either. If a demon were exactly what it was before the Light rearranged its Forces, then redemption wouldn't be relevant.

(Play your game gray? Maybe you just want to recruit that poor Renegade and use its unique abilities for the Greater Good... Oh, hello, SSO setting. >_>)

Now, if I were playing IN Backwards, the poor Shedite should clearly be found by some understanding fellows and brought away from the temptation to the Blank-Eyed Conformists, returning to proper Individuality and caring (obviously) for its hosts in their proper place as its beloved pets. (Obviously, Backwards Kyriotates are forbidden from caring too much for their hosts. Care just enough. But not too much. Tight connections are dangerous. Don't listen to those Sith... er, *cough*, sorry, wrong franchise.)

Now, some extremely sticky issues might come if you get a Game-Shedite riding a willing, knowing host, who wants to experience the Being Ridden thing.
*Is that healthy for a host? (...er, probably not? But maybe better than alternatives, depending?)
*Is the human giving unconditional acceptance of the Shedite Mind-Meld the very thing that's turning the Shedite brighter? (...I'm an evil GM; of course it is.)
*Is the human using the Shedite's presence to, oh, help cope with PTSD from a bad situation? (Human freaks out; Shedite puts on the brakes and goes, "It's okay, it's okay, I'm here, you're safe.")
*Is that a touchy subject that you should check in with your players about? (YES. But you might swap to someone who is very shy and likes going along with a more outgoing demon who is competent enough to keep the host out of danger. It's like having an Elder God as a "guardian angel!"*)
*Is that kind of a powerful character concept for a couple of hardcore roleplayers? (I know people who'd go for it...)



* All the Cherubim are crying now, yessssss. Except Oorm over there, who looks like a winged sea anemone and doesn't get what the problem is.
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