temporarily lowering IQ below 1

[AlexanderHowl]

A rock is also ST 0, DX 0, and IQ 0.

[Purple Snit]

I think there is also the matter of intent - the disadvantages are intended to represent PCs and NPCs with limits that affect them in a way that significantly influences the game, while the feature is just a shorthand way of noting that the rock/drone/clone body doesn't notice things independently.

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by Purple Snit

I think there is also the matter of intent - the disadvantages are intended to represent PCs and NPCs with limits that affect them in a way that significantly influences the game, while the feature is just a shorthand way of noting that the rock/drone/clone body doesn't notice things independently.

A 95 point difference can be significant when making Allys etc..

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

In game terms, what's the mechanical difference between:

Blindness [-50]; Deafness [-20]; No Sense of Smell/Taste [-5]; Numb [-20] total -95

and

Insensate [0]

What justifies the 95 point difference? How do they differ in play?

That's not a fair representation. What the rock has is

IQ -10 [-200]; Fixed IQ [0]; Insensate [0]

and it also has Per 0 and Will 0 as byproducts.

I'd also say that a rock doesn't have Numb, because it doesn't have even an inchoate awareness of pain or damage, nor does it have any mechanical "functions" that can be disrupted by damage in the way that applies to machines. If anything, the rock has Immunity to Pain [30].

[Anders]

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

A 95 point difference can be significant when making Allys etc..

Are we talking about the point value of a pet rock? :o)

[Aldric]

Originally Posted by whswhs

That's not a fair representation. What the rock has is

IQ -10 [-200]; Fixed IQ [0]; Insensate [0]

and it also has Per 0 and Will 0 as byproducts.

I'd also say that a rock doesn't have Numb, because it doesn't have even an inchoate awareness of pain or damage, nor does it have any mechanical "functions" that can be disrupted by damage in the way that applies to machines. If anything, the rock has Immunity to Pain [30].

Let's say someone can use Possession on rocks, it would suddenly become very important to know if a rock is naturally Blind, Deaf, Numb and/or Immune to Pain

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by Anders

Are we talking about the point value of a pet rock? :o)

In actual play, probably more like a vehicle or something.

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by whswhs

That's not a fair representation.

Why is it unfair?

Originally Posted by whswhs

What the rock has is

IQ -10 [-200]; Fixed IQ [0]; Insensate [0]

and it also has Per 0 and Will 0 as byproducts.

How is that different in play from:

IQ -10 [-200]; Fixed IQ [0];
PER 0 [0]; WILL 0 [0]

Blindness [-50]; Deafness [-20]; No Sense of Smell/Taste [-5]; Numb [-20]

Apart from the 95 point difference?

Originally Posted by whswhs

I'd also say that a rock doesn't have Numb, because it doesn't have even an inchoate awareness of pain or damage,

How does being unaware of pain or damage mean you don't have Numb?

Originally Posted by whswhs

nor does it have any mechanical "functions" that can be disrupted by damage in the way that applies to machines. If anything, the rock has Immunity to Pain [30].

In play, how would you tell the difference between a rock that has Immunity to Pain [30] and one that had Low Pain Threshold [-10]?

[Anders]

An entity with IQ 0 wouldn't be inconvenienced by not having eyes, because there's nothing there to process the information. A disadvantage that doesn't inconvenience you is worth no points.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

How is that different in play from:

IQ -10 [-200]; Fixed IQ [0];
PER 0 [0]; WILL 0 [0]

Blindness [-50]; Deafness [-20]; No Sense of Smell/Taste [-5]; Numb [-20]

Apart from the 95 point difference?

Well, the case I was mainly concerned with was, say, an aircraft, say, ca. 1980. It has no AI functions, and thus its IQ, Per, and Will are all 0. But it doesn't make any IQ, Per, or Will rolls; those are made by its pilot.

So it has, for example, onboard radar. This is Scanning Sense. The aircraft can't use it, but the pilot can use it. Similarly, it has Telecommunication in the form of its radio system, which includes the ability to receive radio messages. Those are both "sensory" traits in GURPS terms. If a particular aircraft of that model had damaged components, it might have No Radar or No Radio; those would be sensory disadvantages relative to its normal racial template.

And if it has windows, letting the pilot see, then it seems to me that in parallel, it has sight, and if the windows are painted over, it may have Blind.

All of this is relative to the conscious of the agent that actually controls the plane's actions. And that relativity—"you can't use your own senses; someone else has to use them for you"—is what Insensate represents.

As for the rock, it seems to me that that question only arises in fantasy campaigns where elemental spirits can possess masses of matter of their type. And elementals always seem to have senses comparable to those of humans. Possessing a rock, and being blind and deaf and so on, is not something anyone would voluntarily do, though I suppose it could be a form of imprisonment.

Conversely, if you want to say that "senses" only refer to senses that the rock itself uses, or the airplane, then having not only Per 0 but also inability to make Per rolls at all seems to mean that it doesn't matter whether you have eyes, or ears, or a sensitive skin, or a radio receiver, because you can't use them. So I don't see any justification for giving you disadvantage points for them, as they don't limit you. It's just like not being able to take -6 points for not having a native language if your IQ is less than 6, or not being able to take levels of Low TL in the same case.

How does being unaware of pain or damage mean you don't have Numb?

The specifications for Numb say that you still have certain degrees of tactile awareness. You can tell that you've been hurt; you just can't tell where. That isn't sufficient to describe a rock, which has no awareness at all of being damaged, and never has to roll for shock.

In play, how would you tell the difference between a rock that has Immunity to Pain [30] and one that had Low Pain Threshold [-10]?

The latter can be knocked down and stunned on a roll vs. HT-2. The former cannot be stunned at all; and if it's knocked down, it's only by sheer physical impact from a collision that causes knockback. The former seems to be the only one that really makes sense for a rock; talking about a rock being "stunned" seems empty.