Fire Spells, burn damage and a bit of Frustration

[Thunderfingerz]

So I my group and I have been playing GURPS for quite a while now in different settings and recently we decided to play some Fantasy. So for the first time I built myself a firemage/ sorcerer based on GURPS MAgic. The Characterconcept is that my char was part of some secret society of the fire mages and was trained as a sort of black ops/terrorist/arsonist and was brainwashed to do so until recently.

While my char has some military background (as all firemages in this setting have) I designed him as someone who is quick on his feet working more with scare tactics, meaning AOE's and chip damage rather than blasting huge fireballs arround all day. He is more of an agent after all.

After our first encounter I was really frustrated because nothing went as intended and I felt like what I intended to do is just not possible with the given rules.

First of burn damage and DR just stops making sense to me after a certain point. Sure having plate helps against fire but after doing some reading a guy in full plate with an average DR of something like 6 or 7 could be standing in a fire for 3xDR sec (according to the chapter on Heat) without taking damage and after that time he will loose 1 FP/sec. Just how does that make sense? With the examples given he could be standing in the middle of a bonfire for something like 18-21 seconds and after that he will start to sweat a little. And in GURPS 18 seconds in combat is a ton, even if I found a way to keep that enemy engulfed in flames.

On the other extreme Burning touch for whatever reason completly ignores Parry, Block AND DR just by booping a guy with a burning Hand or stick. Big Balls of Fire hurled at an enemy however can just be blocked regularly no matter how much damage you do (we currently dont use HP on shields and I'm not to keen on suggesting that since I feel this is even more encumbrance on combat).

And also I found very little effective spells AOE wise. Create Fire just isn't enough to actually stop anybody or even make someone think twice since 1d-3 burn damage when passing through is just laughable once your not completly naked or have fur. Also I found no rules that say you have to make WILL or other checks to enter or move through fire. So there is from a RAW perspective no reason to even bother with that bit of flame.

So does anyone have some houserules that tackle some of those issues? Or did I miss something? Or do you guys have tipps how to make a Fire Sorcerer work without spending several rounds to just charge up Fireball/explosive Fireball over and over again.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Thunderfingerz

First of burn damage and DR just stops making sense to me after a certain point. Sure having plate helps against fire but after doing some reading a guy in full plate with an average DR of something like 6 or 7 could be standing in a fire for 3xDR sec (according to the chapter on Heat) without taking damage and after that time he will loose 1 FP/sec. Just how does that make sense? With the examples given he could be standing in the middle of a bonfire for something like 18-21 seconds and after that he will start to sweat a little. And in GURPS 18 seconds in combat is a ton, even if I found a way to keep that enemy engulfed in flames.

If engulfed in flames, you should have to hold your breath (B351-352), or you'll be breathing in flames, which would, at best, mean you get no DR (and a case could be made for this being an attack on the vitals, though it's probably bad enough as it is). If the fire appeared without warning, they'll have HT x 1/2 turns before they start losing FP (and there's no HT saves vs FP loss from running out of air).

On the other extreme Burning touch for whatever reason completly ignores Parry, Block AND DR just by booping a guy with a burning Hand or stick. Big Balls of Fire hurled at an enemy however can just be blocked regularly no matter how much damage you do (we currently dont use HP on shields and I'm not to keen on suggesting that since I feel this is even more encumbrance on combat).

Burning Touch can be parried, blocked, or dodged (B240/M11, and if the caster is using their hand getting parried could be rather unpleasant.

Note that if your Fireball is parried with a wooden shield and does 10+ damage, the shield is now on fire (B434).

And also I found very little effective spells AOE wise. Create Fire just isn't enough to actually stop anybody or even make someone think twice since 1d-3 burn damage when passing through is just laughable once your not completly naked or have fur. Also I found no rules that say you have to make WILL or other checks to enter or move through fire. So there is from a RAW perspective no reason to even bother with that bit of flame.

So does anyone have some houserules that tackle some of those issues? Or did I miss something? Or do you guys have tipps how to make a Fire Sorcerer work without spending several rounds to just charge up Fireball/explosive Fireball over and over again.

The first thing is to reduce the casting time of Rain of Fire to 1 second/turn, to match the other 'Rain of...' spells (this is suggested in Artillery Spells, so it's semi-rules as written).

Note that the 1d-3 for running through fire only applies if you can get out of it by the end of your turn - if they can't it's 1d-1 damage. Yes, if they're armoured it's not a huge deal, though because it's large area injury, unless they have eye protection their armour won't be as good as it looks. That guy in (really expensive) full plate has Torso DR7, and eye DR0, for DR4 vs fires.

If the fire is high enough to block or impede vision, running through it could cause collisions, or require DX checks to not stumble and fall.

For all that, it's true that ordinary fire isn't that dangerous to completely armoured characters - this is realistic, when you consider that fire-fighters used to wear leather and soak it in water to buy time, and that rapidly passing even a bared arm through a wood fire's flame doesn't hurt (just smells bad as the arm hair gets burned). Remember though that a 2-3 point Ignite Fire will set someone's clothes on fire, and that's distracting even if they're not taking damage from it, so people not in complete armour suits can be distracted with this.

Now, the problem overall is that GURPS' magic system makes direct damage fairly expensive, and missile spells like Fireball are balanced against bows, not melee attacks. Also, the system makes area attacks (direct damage or not) expensive - it's not about D&D wizards!

Fire spells are still incredibly destructive though, assuming no counter-magic. They let you burn the enemy's infrastructure and supplies to ash. Normal low-point value troops will should be quite unwilling to run through fire, and animals such as horses will flee from uncontrolled flames. You might not kill that many people, but you can seriously disorder a camp, etc., with a few well-placed spells.

When using Fireball (Explosive Fireball is generally, IMO, next to useless unless you have vast amounts of energy available), your best bet is carefully aimed Fireballs of small size (and thus low cost, ideally free), or if you can get surprise a massive 'alpha strike', big enough to one-shot the target. Unfortunately, it's hard to arrange surprise when summoning balls of fire, given you'll need to aim as you can't afford to miss.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Thunderfingerz

Or do you guys have tipps how to make a Fire Sorcerer work without spending several rounds to just charge up Fireball/explosive Fireball over and over again.

Combine Create Fire and Shape Fire (1 Turn to cast each) and then you can engulf enemies in Fire on your Turns and not just wait for them to charge through passive barriers. After youve got thsoe spells up you're a "controller" in D&D terms chasing them all around the battlefield and forcing them to use their Turns to Move out of your Fire.

What Rupert said about average DR should be true also.

Mostly though you're meant to be using Lightning on guys in Plate. You should be meeting guys who aren't in plate too.

[ericthered]

I have a house-rule where torso armor can only stop 50% of large area damage, and you have to use your lowest armor value against the other half of the flames. And yes, its more effective if you prevent them from passing through the area in a second.

And I've found that DR 6 is on the high side of things.

[Anthony]

DR can still be penetrated by raw damage, so something like Essential Flame+Fast Fire can kill people fairly efficiently; add Shape Fire and you have a rolling ball of death.

[Black Leviathan]

Area spells are pretty pricey but Casting Glue over an area and then shape fire. Training up your spell level so that you can cast 2-3 Die flame jets with little or no mana cost makes you deadly at fairly low point cost.

[Kromm]

Remember that Large-Area Injury (p. B400) applies to anyone standing in fire; see p. B433. For instance, someone with plate armor might have DR 6 on most hit locations, but they can probably see, so their eyes have DR 0. Thus, they use DR (6 + 0)/2 = 3, not DR 6.

That means ordinary fire, which does 1d-1 per second, is likely to do harm if someone just stands in it – even in plate armor. Averaged over time, you'd expect 0.5 points of injury/second against DR 3. An ordinary person would burn to death in less than a minute (real-life estimates are 30-60 seconds for people not in armor).

If that isn't fast enough, use Essential Flame (Magic, p. 75), which does +1 damage. That's 1d per second. Again assuming large-area injury vs. plate armor (so effective DR 3), that averages 1 point of injury/second. An ordinary person would burn to death in less than 30 seconds.

If even that isn't fast enough, pitch Molotov cocktails or Greek fire (p. B411). That's 1d per second for 10d seconds, and because it seeps through cracks, DR is at 1/5 normal value (and divisors mean you round down). That person in plate armor would have effective DR 1 and suffer on average 2.5 points of injury/second. They'd probably burn to death in 8-12 seconds (which is on a par with the shorter estimates for napalm).

The rules for people "only" suffering FP loss in flame are on top of this, and cover heat, not burning. Still, if the fire is feeble enough, the victim might live to lose FP, and once FP run out, they'll lose more HP.

But it's important to realize that large-area fire isn't a great way to take foes out of a fight quickly. In real life, flame is an area-denial and psychological weapon used on distant foes, and an anti-materiel weapon used on buildings, typically via incendiary shells and bombs that can blanket an area far larger than a person could hope to escape, or occasionally via flamethrowers used on people boxed into pillboxes and other fortifications.

If you want to burn people quickly in a fight where other fighters are using swords, arrows, and other weapons that penetrate the body and poke holes in vital areas, you'll have to resort to things that are mostly fantasy. The Flame Jet spell, for instance, is effectively a big spear of fire that's powerful enough to pierce armor. Burning Touch is a weird curse that ignores science and crisps flesh.

Of course, if your character concept is "secret agent," "terrorist," or whatever, you don't really expect to be effective in stand-up, toe-to-toe fights where you have to kill people in a few seconds. Maybe consider just not using fire in those battles. I'm pretty sure that real-life arsonists, jumped by enemies, fight back with fists, knives, guns, etc. – not fire. Likewise, soldiers armed with flamethrowers and incendiary grenades don't use them in close-quarters battle; those weapons are meant for use on dug-in foes, and if the enemy is charging out in the open, slinging fire at them would endanger the user and their allies, who'd likely just use bullets, bayonets, etc. themselves.

This is a variant on the ancient "assassin vs. warrior" argument. Some things – arson, poisoning, sabotage, smothering, etc. – are deadly, but rarely on the time scale of a fight. If you build a character around using these methods, usually you're looking at either being somewhere else when the victim dies or not leaving clear traces of murder, which mostly precludes using these means in combat. The solution to being effective is (1) do your killing in a way that doesn't involve combat, and (2) when you can't avoid combat, have a more immediately deadly option on hand. Expecting someone alerted and clad for battle to stand around and burn to death isn't any more logical than chasing them around with a poisoned cannoli and trying to force them to eat it.

[Plane]

One idea for heating up metal armor, what if this worked like a follow-up Affliction that imparted a Burning Attack Aura to metal targets, and then once per turn your armor automatically attacks you as long as you wear it?

[Kallatari]

Create/houserule a new spell based on Greek Fire. Here's a first of-the-cuff stab at it, so can't say it's fully balanced without further testing it, but I think it gets the idea across about what you could possibly create.

Flaming Oil (VH)
Missile

Creates a ball of flaming oil (or greek fire or napalm) which you can throw from your hand. This has 1/2D 25, Max 50, Acc 1. The target may dodge or block, but not parry. When it strikes something, it inflicts the indicated burning damage, then seeps over the target. The flaming oil will continue to burn the target for an additional 10d seconds for the same amount of damage every second. Most DR protects against the ongoing damage at only 1/5 value; sealed armor and natural DR protects completely. If a shield is hit, it takes the damage instead.

If the target is the ground, it sets fire to a one-yard radius, filling it with flames that causes the same amount of damage to anyone standing in it (or half damage if only part of a turn is spent in the flames). These flames also last for 10d seconds.

In all cases, the ongoing flames are considered ordinary - although possibly very hot - flames and can be extinguished normally. Otherwise, treat this the same as Molotov Cocktails (p.B411).

Cost: Any amount up to three times your Magery level per second, for three seconds. The Flaming Oil does 1d burning per full 3 points of energy.
Time to Cast: 1 to 3 seconds
Prerequisites: Magery, Create Fuel, Fireball

[Thunderfingerz]

Oh wow what a community! 😅 so first off thanks for all the responses and ideas!

Thanks for the clarification on large area injury. I also thought about the fact that eyes wont have dr but wasnt sure whether or not that counts. But that makes it things a lot easier in our context.

And the encounter we had didnt leave much choice for other approaches. But that was whats frustrating me since i felt my only option to contribute to the party was to mindlessly charge and spam fireballs which isnt really what i want the char to do.

But I think I found an interesting way to play the char thanks to you guys. I will invest a few points in chemistry/explosives (fireworks) and just have a incendiary substances or small explosives on me as a supplement for combat. So in a tight spot or an open fight i can cover a heavily armored enemy in oil and set him on fire. Working with stuff like that seems super fitting for my char.