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Old 12-03-2019, 08:40 AM   #31
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Saint Paul, MN
Default Re: temporarily lowering IQ below 1

Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
They will always fail Fright checks, unless they have Unfazeability or multiple levels of Fearlessness.
I'm having trouble wrapping my head around this idea. I guess I could see instinctive fright, like shying away from flames and things like that. I can't imagine an IQ 0 creating being afraid of many of the other sorts of things that would require a fright check. If some interdimensional portal opened with purple vapors and faint squiddy swirls, how could that scare something that can't think? Similarly, the idea of gaining a pile of new disadvantages doesn't really make sense to me.
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Old 12-03-2019, 12:50 PM   #32
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: temporarily lowering IQ below 1

Originally Posted by vorpalvitto View Post
Mind Control spells like Foolishness work only on sapient creatures (IQ 6+) as per Magic p.133.
Didn't notice that, I guess that makes the cap of 5 points (minimum IQ 1) a natural guard against this situation, except with Magery and Effect, as Harald pointed out earlier.

I guess it's like having "Immunity to Mind-Affecting Magic" [30] like a Demon (M155) for free if you have IQ less than 6, but maybe "Can be affected by animal spells" [30] balances that out? M29 specifies non-sapients.

If not, then there's Affliction (lowered IQ) which is more flexible.

Originally Posted by vorpalvitto View Post
Now in case of a different ability that lowers a subjects IQ to 0, then the FAQ has a rule on what happens.

Right, just questioning what it means to "act" basically. I'm thinking you don't necessarily need to "perceive" to breathe, since we do that while we're asleep or even unconscious.

I'm wondering if maybe all fish like sharks should have a disadvantage to reflect their inability to do this though (needing to swim to push air through gills to extract oxygen). "Doesn’t Breathe (Gills)" B49 doesn't talk about the moving aspect.

It changes from a 10 point advantage to a 0-point feature if you can't breathe air, so I was thinking you could treat "can't breathe air" as -10 points, and apply something like "only while moving" limitation (P99: -10% if 1 step per second is needed to maintain) to Doesn't Breathe, lowering it to 9 points, so instead of being a 0-point feature, sharks would have a quirk?

I think you need to perceive+act to be able to EAT... but plants clearly do not starve to death despite IQ 0... I thought for a moment B50 "Doesn't Eat or Drink" would apply due to the mention of "solar-powered", but plants DO drink water (just maybe not so much as we do?) although maybe this might work like DEOD+Dependency:Water?

I don't know how to represent the need for Carbon Dioxide (is that closer to a plant eating or a plant breathing?) but that should probably be some kind of environmental limitation on either DB or DEOD compared to something which would do just fine in the vacuum of space with neither O2 or CO2.

Originally Posted by coronatiger View Post
I think the idea is to have Insensate in addition to the disads you mentioned.
B146 Numb still leaves you with "a limited degree of pressure sense" so I could see adding something on top of that to remove that as well.

Is there an upside to this that makes it 0point, or is it just that it's a quirk but not enough of a quirk to be worth -1 point? Like pressure sense is only worth point?

Originally Posted by Anders View Post
An entity with IQ 0 wouldn't be inconvenienced by not having eyes, because there's nothing there to process the information. A disadvantage that doesn't inconvenience you is worth no points.
I think what they're getting at is how IQ-9 and Blindness is a valid combo yet worth more points than IQ-10, as ravenfish pointed out earlier.

Blindness would be a disadvantage towards someone possessing you, or operating your senses using Compartmentalized Mind.

In the case of Ally: Car, wouldn't Blindness represent whether or not you had a camera they could operate to look outside of you?

Or maybe it's even required to have windows?

Sort of in the sense that having Basic Move isn't really of any use to you if you're IQ 0 (you can't move on your own anyway) but it's useful to a car to have it because of the utility it provides to someone using Dedicated Controls (or perhaps Possession) to move the car's body.

That's pretty much the case for all physical traits. What is the purpose to have HP at all for your own benefit if you're not sentient to appreciate it? For your user/master/ally.

The "No Eyes" advantage basically means "I don't have eyes but I can still see", so should a car with that advantage force its occupants to be blind? Wonder Woman's invisible jet would essentially have no reason to have anything like a window (everywhere is a window) so it should probably be that way.

A vehicle that you can't see out of at all should probably have "Blindness" to limit its passengers.

Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
talking about a rock being "stunned" seems empty.
Possession imparts physical advantages to the possessor, so even if you have no mechanical effects of stuff like shock (who cares if you avoid -1 to IQ if you lack IQ) it makes sense to define the physical advantage of "High Pain Threshold" for a Rock to see how it would affect the mental abilities of a ghost inhabiting that rock if the rock host-body is smacked around.

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
An inanimate object will probably have ST 0 [-100], DX 0 [-200], and IQ 0 [-200]. It will have No Manipulators [-50] and either No Legs (Portable) [-20] or No Legs (Sessile) [-50]. It will also have Blind [-50], Deaf [-20], Mute [-25], No Sense of Taste/Smell [-5], Numb [-20], and Unhealing (Total) [-30]. At a minimum, it will have -720 CP in negative traits.
If you buy ST down to 0, isn't it mandatory to buy HP up to at least 1 to exist at all?

Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
They can attempt to roll against Will 0 (automatically failing by at least 3 points) to resist any Influence roll or psychic or magical attack they can understand, but it may be better for them to just not resist and accept being taken over.
If you don't have sentience, I'm not sure influence rolls could actually do anything. Even for sentient non-sapient animals, a lot of stuff like Savoir-Fair or Fast-Talking already won't work. It's like some kind of built-in benefit to being stupid.

Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
They will always fail Fright checks, unless they have Unfazeability or multiple levels of Fearlessness. Their skills based on IQ, Per, and Will fall into the basement.
Even without Unfazeable/Fearlessness, someone might simply have bought up Will higher than IQ, or be under the benefit of a spell that adds to will rolls.

I don't know that this would matter for Mind Control, because at IQ 0 you probably can't understand any kind of command to be able to obey it... so it's like you're already immune?

But I think someone with IQ 1 / Will 31 who suffers -1 to IQ should probably still get to resist stuff like Possession at Will 30. Even if they aren't sentient (can't perceive anything, can't act) we might view that as just some kind of inherent resistance that thing has to being inhabited?

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead View Post
I disagree with some of this:

That means a lot of Will rolls should still succeed on a 3-4 (not great odds); I'd say that includes any Influence roll or psychic or magical attack resisted by WILL or IQ or PER, and Fear Checks. If they do fail (almost certainly) I'd calculate the margin of failure or Critical failure from whatever their modified number was. Thus with attribute 0 and penalties of -6 you would Critical succeed on 3-4 and Critical fail on 5-18.
About this part of the FAQ you quoted:
targeting a living or sapient being
Sapience is well-defined (IQ 6+) but how do we define "living" again? B60 "Unliving" is supposed to be an advantage (Injury Tolerance) so it would be inconvenient if that came saddled with an inability to make resistance rolls if your attribute is reduced to 2 or less, while those without IT:U could still make them.

Probably the reason "can't resist with stat below 3 if non-sapient" isn't a disadvantage is because there is actually a benefit from having this too: when you roll on the Fright Check Table (B360) you add your Margin of Failure, but if you don't roll at all, there isn't any margin to add, so you might get a 3 (no result!) or at worst an 18 (possibly taking 1 HP injury from a faint where you fail a HT roll)
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Old 12-03-2019, 12:53 PM   #33
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: temporarily lowering IQ below 1

Originally Posted by dcarson View Post
Of course they can't get -6 points for Native language(None) there is no written form of dog only spoken. Unless you consider the scent marking a written form. I am now imagining a Ally dog that was raised from birth by some foster animal and has cat or goat or such as their Native Language.
Do you think maybe the way dogs/cats communicate by growling/yelping/hissing/whining might work something like "Broken to Broken" communication?

B87 "Speak with Animals" seems to imply that animals can communicate, albeit at a rate of 1 minute per question/answer which is super-slow compared to humans...

B87 "Speak with Plants" similarly, seems to indicate that plants might have limited IQ (perhaps 1 instead of 0?) and some degree of self-awareness, since they can remember "how recently it was watered or walked on". Maybe plants even communicate concepts like this through their root networks? Language based on chemical transfer?

B15's "can still communicate primitive concepts (such as hunger or danger) through gesture or vocalization" I think would mean that having Mute instead of Cannot Speak (B125) is still a disadvantage for them.

B198 "gesture" might apply to non-audio communication dogs do, but since it's based on "improvised hand signals", someone gesturing without hands (whether No Fine Manipulators or their hands are full) should probably get serious penalties.

It should be fine for basic ideas like "good" or "bad" or maybe even "follow me" which you can communicate by moving your head (probably a big bonus, +10? to stuff like that) but not like the SWAT-team complex strategy stuff with hand signals.

For literacy, I think the exception to the discounts on B24 is on B25:
The GM should not count these points against the disadvantage limit if illiteracy is the norm in the game world.

"world" doesn't necessarily have to mean "planet earth", you could view this like the metaphorical "dog world" that a dog-focused campaign would take place in. This would be the case if doing Bunnies+Burrows for example, where literacy just isn't going to play a role. You could treat the -3 for lacking a literacy for your language as being a built-in disadvantage. If "Farmer MacGregor" happens to be literate, you can treat him as being worth 3 points extra to have what would normally be a free ability in a human campaign.

If we're talking about stuff like ally:pet or ally:familiar, it feels like maybe they ought to get those points if they can't read though, since they are set in a human's world. Otherwise, you're getting a less useful ally compared to if you built a human who got free literacy.

Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
animals don't get that disadvantage, because not having a language is built into having IQ 5 or less.
Would that mean if you zapped them with Affliction: IQ+1 or they were allowed to buy up their IQ that suddenly they would have a language/literacy?

B456 chimps/gorillas have IQ 6 and don't list a discount for a lack of literacy. I'm thinking their "traits" aren't meant to be 100% inclusive of every consideration though. They should probably have "semi-upright" like bears (listed right after) do, but that isn't mentioned either.

If we compare these to IQ 5 creatures like Wild Boars (B458) we're talking about a 20-point difference in their intelligence.

If we gave a "no literacy" discount to chimps but not to boars, then that point difference would shrink. It creates a huge incentive to move from 5 to 6...

I might for example, at IQ 5, opt to take:

IQ +1 [20]
Will -1 [-5]
Per -1 [-5]
No Language [-6]
This basically gives me +1 to just my IQ for a mere 4 points.

Originally Posted by Dalin View Post
I can't imagine an IQ 0 creating being afraid of many of the other sorts of things that would require a fright check. If some interdimensional portal opened with purple vapors and faint squiddy swirls, how could that scare something that can't think?
The mental stun created by fright check failures doesn't really make a difference if you already can't act at all. IQ 0 already forces you to "do nothing" and I assume you can't make active defence rolls either, so stun causing -4 to those rolls wouldn't accomplish much...

On B360 that covers results 4-11, the problem is more in regard to B361's more interesting results like vomiting, acquiring new quirks, losing FP, acquiring delusions/phobias, gaining -15/-20 in physical disadvantages, having a seizure, taking a 2d heart attack, etc.

An IQ 3 creature is supposedly just as vulnerable to all of that stuff as an IQ 10 creature, so if you wanted to protect your pet bird from having a physical breakdown from sheer terror, if IQ 0 was a protection then Affliction (-3 to IQ +30%) [13] would be a lot cheaper than Affliction (Advantage: Unfazeable +150%) [25]

Maybe what we need is some kind of rules regarding fear checks which relate them to sensory rolls? IE you can't be as afraid of something if you don't perceive it, or don't understand what you're perceiving.

Terror (B93) is a supernatural advantage, so I don't really care if you can "scare a car into having a heart attack" or other weirdness, because supernatural stuff at baseline don't need to follow basic logic. In its base form you need to specify sight/hearing though meaning it won't work against a functionally blind/deaf character like a car.

I don't know that cars would actually get blind/deaf discounts unless they were sightproof/soundproof preventing its payload/controllers from seeing/hearing too. I think it's more like with IQ 0 that the senses are there, but you can't do anything with the input, so you don't bother to roll. The value of the senses is for controllers or ghostly possessors.

If Terror had the "Presence" enhancement (P84) where seeing/hearing isn't required, do we care if it harms a car? We could probably design modifiers for Terror like "sapients only" or "sentients only". The latter could simply be thought of as 0-point (and maybe implied as a default) since "frightening your equipment" would potentially be a pretty big disadvantage, and cause your gear to start falling apart as it acquired physical advantages or seized up.

You could normally avoid that drawback with the Active enhancement (also P94) or perhaps with "Selective Area" enhancement. These would prevent you from terrifying allies unless you accidentally targeted them for some reason (you didn't know an invisible ally was there to exclude their hex, or you didn't know the enemy soldier you were trying to terrify was an ally in disguise)
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