Storium - In Nomine

[Archangel Beth]

Originally Posted by EDG

my first responsibility is to fit the setting and themes of In Nomine into Storium, not to rework Storium to fit In Nomine's game mechanics.

Among other reasons, because Storium's game mechanics are hard-coded in many ways and soooooomehow I don't think they're going to be willing to rewrite their computer code for just one game. O;>

It's entirely possible some mechanics are going to have to be "back-channel" -- e.g., the GM rolls dice -- or Storium's "players have huge input" model will need to prevail. (Just as if someone did a Force and Destiny/In Nomine homebrew (Malakim with lightsabers!), the whole Threat/Despair/Advantage/whatever-crit-success-is-called-Triumph?-is-it model would make dissonance rolls interesting to adjudicate. Despair/Triumph could map to 666/111, but the whole "you can fail, but still have Advantages" model sometimes makes my head spin anyway.)

But, well, like that earlier example: an In Nomine LARP can't easily have people walking through walls in celestial form or flying up elevator shafts. Pesky physics don't care about the game's rules, and hard-coded computer rules are just as inflexible in this case. (No, seriously, we don't have the budget to ask Storium to program in special IN rules. Come up with an anti-gravity device and we'll talk.)

And that's also not getting into the aspect that people who like the Storium platform and the Storium model of cooperative gaming... aren't going to be as interested in a pick-up game that doesn't fit. It'd be like telling GURPS players all the Choir/Band Attunements are 5 points no matter what they do. O;>

So we'll definitely see what we can do and how we can wiggle stuff, but if it comes to mechanics that are simply incompatible with Storium's code, we'll have to figure out different mechanics.

[wabishtar]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Presumably this is true of any setting with an omnipotent deity (or deities). I don't think that really needs dice to reflect it, or even really needs mechanical translation. For Storium, which works more like fiction, I would think that God is in the emergent properties of shared narrative.

Not really, no. I don't know how familiar you are with In Nomine there, but there are mechanics specifically written into the system to simulate an unknowable God. The d666 roll with its occasional, unpredictable divine and infernal interventions. The mechanics that take whether or not an angel falls for breaking their dissonance restrictions totally out of both the player and GM's hands. These are all mechanics that could have been written in a different way, and have been, many times, in most settings I'm familiar with that have an all mighty deity.

And while I'm skeptical of the idea that such a thing can be achieved, if it is the be achieved, it can only be done if the fact that that is the spirit of the game is somehow communicated to the people who are only familiar to it through Storium, ESPECIALLY, because the mechanical system isn't there to guide you into how to run the world. I would suggest something in there similar to the boxes on pages 137 to 185 about how to use Lucifer and God in the game, but FAR more detailed, maybe even borrowing heavily from similar sections of the Game Master's Guide.

Basically, the system a game uses in tabletop constrains the game universe in a way that has a profound effect on what kind of story is even possible to tell. Since those kinds of implied, subtle aspects of the game can't be carried over in the same way, it seems that if a Storium game is going to be at all similar, the write up has to make those same things into explicit, overt aspects of the game, especially if it's going to be run by people who've never played tabletop In Nomine.

[EDG]

wabishtar, your reading of In Nomine's treatment of dice rolls is clever and interesting, but ultimately not supported by the text. Here's what the core rules do say:

It is important not to let rules ruin the fun of the game. Numbers should take a back seat to imagination. For examples and advice on when to use dice and when to wing it, see Game Mechanics, which starts on p. 38.

In Nomine isn’t about math – it’s about entertainment. If your group feels that a rule or a number doesn’t work, you should change it. Rule interpretations should generally be left to the GM, but if all the players want a change, the GM should follow through. Take a hint from the demons – sometimes it’s more important to have fun than to follow the rules.

(p.25)

and

God does not play dice with the universe, but we do. Dice resolve conflict in a random enough fashion to satisfy both players and GMs.

(p. 38)

You're welcome to interpret the In Nomine rules in any way you choose, but I think you're going to be disappointed if you expect others - especially the people writing the game - to base their decisions on your non-canon interpretation.

[wabishtar]

Originally Posted by EDG

wabishtar, your reading of In Nomine's treatment of dice rolls is clever and interesting, but ultimately not supported by the text. Here's what the core rules do say:



(p.25)

and



(p. 38)

You're welcome to interpret the In Nomine rules in any way you choose, but I think you're going to be disappointed if you expect others - especially the people writing the game - to base their decisions on your non-canon interpretation.

That disclaimer exists in some form in basically every role playing game I've ever had the pleasure to read. It's not In Nomine specific, it something you say to every GM so they don't get totally bogged down in minutiae. That being said, the system and the mechanics in it seem to be a pretty clear indication of how the designers of the game intended it to be played.

[EDG]

My friend, I've been in contact with both the original author (Derek Pearcy) and the line editor (Beth), and both have actively and explicitly approved of both the general idea of a diceless adaptation of In Nomine and of this particular adaptation (although all three of us appear to agree that it should be longer and contain more information).

Again, your interpretation is interesting and I encourage you to continue to think of the In Nomine games you run that way -- but if it were the designers' intent, and they believed that removing randomness from the game would irredeemably damage its nature, I assure you it would have come up long before the publication and public-comment stage.

I'd like to get back to writing instead of debating, so I'm going to go largely silent here, but I will be monitoring this thread. Please continue submitting suggestions for improving Storium In Nomine. With, of course, the understanding that the adaptation has to abide by Storium's rules and mechanics, and that "don't do the adaptation" isn't on the table. :)

[Archangel Beth]

*nod* Noelle is right. We knew going in that Storium did not have a random-number-based system. We approved the conversion. Just as INS/MV changed hugely in both mechanics and setting when it was adapted into English (author Genevieve Cogman reads french and brought original books on a visit once), so will the mechanics have to change for Storium. This is non-negotiable, for all the reasons I have said before. I am speaking as the Line Editor, "ex cathedra" here. We will retain the spirit of the setting, and if we come up with some clever hacks for "random" number generation, we can add those. But we must work within the structure of Storium's code and that's final.

Any suggestions for stuff -- working within the structure of Storium's code -- will certainly be read and we'll see about implementing what we can! But we're not getting to reprogram Storium. Sorry.

And, speaking as a mod, please do not defend your interpretation of the rules with an assumption that the other person is not familiar with them. That sort of approach makes the forums less friendly and can drive away people who would otherwise want to play the game. As In Nomine has a small, niche following, the last thing we want to do is drive away people who play the game a little differently. So, please, try to use "I" statements, such as "I always interpreted X in this way:" or "I really don't think that's supported by <rules citation>".

Further, it's mechanically untrue that the dice take Falling entirely out of the player's hands! The Falling and Discord mechanics, barring an unlucky 666, place virtually all the choice in the player's hands. First note of dissonance, there's no chance of Falling (except that 666). Second note of dissonance, ditto -- you can't roll less than a 1. Third note of dissonance, you'd have to roll under a 2 on all three dice -- but a 111 is good for angels! And after you have 3 notes of dissonance, you can convert to Discord, which is usually dissonance-roll neutral. (And while Discord may be assigned randomly (p. 89, core rules), the GM may assign it based on whatever basis the GM desires, possibly including player input.)

In Nomine can certainly be played with a strict reliance on the dice! It can also be played in a more narrative way, and that's not wrong, either.

So speaks the Line Editor.

[wabishtar]

Originally Posted by Archangel Beth

Any suggestions for stuff -- working within the structure of Storium's code -- will certainly be read and we'll see about implementing what we can! But we're not getting to reprogram Storium. Sorry.

Okay, so setting aside my interpretation of the mechanics, I still feel that the notion that God is aloof, distant, and unknowable in In Nomine is something that isn't addressed in the current write up. There is one line under the description of Yves that says that he is the only one who can reliably communicate with God, but one could interpret that as meaning that no one else has the ability to contact him and initiate conversation. It is mentioned that God can appoint Archangels and assign words, which while true, ignores the fact that within the universe, God hasn't really had an active part in The War since The Purity Crusade, and most of Heaven's activities are done by the Seraphim Council.

One could easily walk away from the current write up with the impression that God is frequently interacting in people's lives like George Burns in Oh, God. Similar concerns could be voiced about Lucifer. The fact that God is essentially absent in The War and the Seraphim Council is largely guessing at what he would want them to do next is an essential part of In Nomine, and something I would like to see made more explicit in the Storium write up.

[EDG]

Originally Posted by wabishtar

Okay, so setting aside my interpretation of the mechanics, I still feel that the notion that God is aloof, distant, and unknowable in In Nomine is something that isn't addressed in the current write up. There is one line under the description of Yves that says that he is the only one who can reliably communicate with God, but one could interpret that as meaning that no one else has the ability to contact him and initiate conversation. It is mentioned that God can appoint Archangels and assign words, which while true, ignores the fact that within the universe, God hasn't really had an active part in The War since The Purity Crusade, and most of Heaven's activities are done by the Seraphim Council.

One could easily walk away from the current write up with the impression that God is frequently interacting in people's lives like George Burns in Oh, God. Similar concerns could be voiced about Lucifer. The fact that God is essentially absent in The War and the Seraphim Council is largely guessing at what he would want them to do next is an essential part of In Nomine, and something I would like to see made more explicit in the Storium write up.

This is a fair cop. I was surprised to read this because I was sure I'd written it, but in examining the text I discovered that I'd cut-for-length my paragraph about God being missing and the Seraphim Council running things. It's on my list of text to be restored!

[rknop]

Originally Posted by Archangel Beth

A prior version of the guidelines was slightly less clear on the minimum/maximum distinction...

I have this problem all the time when I'm driving. I see these signs that say "Speed Limit", but I'm always wondering, "is that a lower limit?"

On topic, I really need to give Storium a try! To many cool things in the world, not enough time.

[robkelk]

Originally Posted by rknop

I have this problem all the time when I'm driving. I see these signs that say "Speed Limit", but I'm always wondering, "is that a lower limit?"

In some places, they are! There's a freeway near where I live with posted speed limits of 120 kilometers/hour maximum and 65 kilometers/hour minimum.

I blame Asmodeus, for making the rules more complex than necessary.