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Old 11-23-2014, 07:03 PM   #11
simply Nathan
formerly known as 'Kenneth Latrans'
 
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Default Re: what is more fun with GURPS fast magic or slow magic?

I'm most fond of one-second casting times in GURPS and one-round casting times in D&D. I like wizards to be able to do something magical every turn if need be; they're going to tire themselves out faster than the thieves and warriors if they do so anyway.

If I see it lined up that some slower spellcasting method is in play for "flavor" reasons, that usually means that the intended flavor of the campaign will not be to my liking; if it's for "balance" reasons that can only mean that I wouldn't have any fun as a spellcaster even if the flavor and tone otherwise suited me.

I have cast all of three spells in combat in GURPS, one of them in a practice session our GM had us go through to get an understanding of the combat rules. Those spells were fireball (for 9d burn against a cave bear, lighting it on fire despite its stone-like skin), fireball (8d into a field of tall, dry grass to deter some rat-sized ants that were attacking us), and fireball (1d against a velociraptor; the GM ruled that I could cast and throw a 1d missile spell as a single-turn action in that campaign).
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Old 11-23-2014, 07:42 PM   #12
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Default Re: what is more fun with GURPS fast magic or slow magic?

I tend to prefer "fast" magic... slower stuff just doesn't "feel" like magic to me. Of course, that might be because the "slower" stuff is going to come across to me like a science or like something divine or infernal. This may sound odd; after all if you're channeling mana to make reality bend to your will, isn't that magic? Technically, but if I do it through a "slow and steady" method, it feels more like setting specific alternate physics or the like (if channeling a power that isn't provided from a specific being).

Since its on other threads and not this one... I don't have experience with any GURPS magic systems other than the standard one presented in Basic and or the powers based approach from Powers. I guess I also echo an earlier comment; if everyone is supposed to have it (or at least could use it if they knew about it) then I prefer it slower. If being a mage is an inborn trait and not simply a job, I like it faster.
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My GURPS Fourth Edition library consists of Basic Set: Characters, Basic Set: Campaigns, Martial Arts, Powers, Powers: Enhanced Senses, Power-Ups 1: Imbuements, Power-Ups 2: Perks, Power-Ups 3: Talents, Power-Ups 4: Enhancements, Power-Ups 6: Quirks, Power-Ups 8: Limitations, Powers, Social Engineering, Supers, Template Toolkit 1: Characters, Template Toolkit 2: Races, one issue of Pyramid (3/83) a.k.a. Alternate GURPS IV, GURPS Classic Rogues, and GURPS Classic Warriors. Most of which was provided through the generosity of others. Thanks! :)
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Old 11-23-2014, 09:34 PM   #13
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Default Re: what is more fun with GURPS fast magic or slow magic?

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Originally Posted by Otaku View Post
I tend to prefer "fast" magic... slower stuff just doesn't "feel" like magic to me. Of course, that might be because the "slower" stuff is going to come across to me like a science or like something divine or infernal. This may sound odd; after all if you're channeling mana to make reality bend to your will, isn't that magic? Technically, but if I do it through a "slow and steady" method, it feels more like setting specific alternate physics or the like (if channeling a power that isn't provided from a specific being).
I prefer the approach that magic is inducing supernatural forces to aid you, and requires you to get the attention of the forces, petition their aid in polite language, and offer suitable inducements. It's not science; it's politics, or trade, or ceremony. That's how actual historical societies have mostly thought magic worked, and I like to convey a "historical" flavor.

Bill Stoddard
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Old 11-23-2014, 09:46 PM   #14
simply Nathan
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Default Re: what is more fun with GURPS fast magic or slow magic?

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I prefer the approach that magic is inducing supernatural forces to aid you, and requires you to get the attention of the forces, petition their aid in polite language, and offer suitable inducements. It's not science; it's politics, or trade, or ceremony. That's how actual historical societies have mostly thought magic worked, and I like to convey a "historical" flavor.

Bill Stoddard
My preference is to treat magic like superpowers that are learned as skills. One guy studies to concentrate really hard and make wounds go away, one person studies to concentrate really hard and make things burn, another learns to concentrate really hard and make a stick glow like a torch without burning, and so on; with practice, they learn to do these things with less concentration until, like many skills, they become almost second-nature.

I don't like the idea of imploring supernatural forces to gain such effects in general; that clashes uncomfortably with my real-world spiritual beliefs and is also abrasive to my suspension of disbelief.

When I do allow intelligent supernatural forces to be involved I usually don't call it magic, and I am inclined to make such interactions fickle (you ask your patron for aid, but as he's the boss it's up to his interpretation of how to deliver, if indeed he deems your situation to warrant his intervention at all).
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Old 11-23-2014, 10:11 PM   #15
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Default Re: what is more fun with GURPS fast magic or slow magic?

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Originally Posted by Kenneth Latrans View Post
My preference is to treat magic like superpowers that are learned as skills. One guy studies to concentrate really hard and make wounds go away, one person studies to concentrate really hard and make things burn, another learns to concentrate really hard and make a stick glow like a torch without burning, and so on; with practice, they learn to do these things with less concentration until, like many skills, they become almost second-nature.
That's a possible approach. There are genres where it works. But I tend to like superpowers better in the supers genre than in the fantasy genre.

Quote:
I don't like the idea of imploring supernatural forces to gain such effects in general; that clashes uncomfortably with my real-world spiritual beliefs and is also abrasive to my suspension of disbelief.

When I do allow intelligent supernatural forces to be involved I usually don't call it magic, and I am inclined to make such interactions fickle (you ask your patron for aid, but as he's the boss it's up to his interpretation of how to deliver, if indeed he deems your situation to warrant his intervention at all).
° I have no real-world supernatural beliefs, and therefore stories about calling on supernatural forces don't give me a sense of roleplaying "false" or "wrong" supernatural beliefs. To me it's all mythology.

° As it happens, I enjoy fantasy as a genre, and am perfectly willing to suspend my disbelief. I've run campaigns where the supernatural forces were Muslim, or Christian; I've run campaigns where they're classical pagan or animist. To me they're all mythology. I can recognize intellectually that someone might feel otherwise, but it's hard for me to imagine feeling that way myself.

° What you describe as "I don't call it magic" is precisely the sort of thing that feels most authentically magical to me.

Bill Stoddard
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Old 11-23-2014, 10:19 PM   #16
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Default Re: what is more fun with GURPS fast magic or slow magic?

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Honestly, this question just doesn't work well for GURPS. If I'm playing dungeon fantasy then fast magic is the way to go. If I'm playing a conspiracy driven hidden magic style of game then I prefer slow magic. It all comes down to an issue of genre, setting, and style and yet the system remains GURPS in whatever case you're discussing.
Perhaps, alternatively players may explicitly not want to play spell casters in DF. They might be happy with pots, charms, items even if its a high magic setting. That can be slow magic with an emphasis on being prepared through equipment.

Even (sometimes) in Michael Moorcock influenced settings magic is something that's at least set up before the action scene. Its crucially important just not fast.

Equally Psi or super powers in conspiracy hidden power settings is still usually fast, its the scale and visibility of it that's key. Magic is not really slow in Mage or GURPS Vodoo.

Slow GURPS magic is more about procedure and time, space and ritual as limitations. Not hidden or secret power. The GURPS rules are explicity detailed for slow magic. Its not just times ten time for casting spells for example. It requires the gaming group to find that fun, not a specific genre. I think it is a question for GURPS given we have good slow detailed rules for GURPS rules that we are yet to get for many other rule sets.

Last edited by lachimba; 11-23-2014 at 11:22 PM.
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Old 11-23-2014, 10:43 PM   #17
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Default Re: what is more fun with GURPS fast magic or slow magic?

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Originally Posted by jeff_wilson View Post
This is GURPS, a PC does not have to be ONLY a caster.

This is GURPS, fewer active PCs in second-by-second play sequences makes them move along faster so the party can get back to casting narrative sequences sooner.
Yes, I guess with point balance you have to be careful. If magic is going to be x % of your point budget then it better feel like the points are worth it.

Equally i suppose I would change my mind and say that even healing magic or exocisms that take hours can be critical in a high action campaign. Is it fun to have the PC with their points into healing (or any other) magic that does this between action scenes? Is it fun to use the rules to save an hour here and get a plus one there? Otherwise dont let the PCs run it make it NPCs only (or use fast magic).

Last edited by lachimba; 11-23-2014 at 11:11 PM.
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Old 11-24-2014, 02:38 PM   #18
Otaku
 
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Default Re: what is more fun with GURPS fast magic or slow magic?

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
I have no real-world supernatural beliefs, and therefore stories about calling on supernatural forces don't give me a sense of roleplaying "false" or "wrong" supernatural beliefs. To me it's all mythology.
That still seems like a belief if everything has to have what you would consider a "naturalistic" explanation. It does not strike me as a properly scientific view, unless it is a matter of semantics: if it can be observed and understood it is "natural" no matter what is involved. If that is the case, my apologies, but we use these terms quite differently.

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
As it happens, I enjoy fantasy as a genre, and am perfectly willing to suspend my disbelief. I've run campaigns where the supernatural forces were Muslim, or Christian; I've run campaigns where they're classical pagan or animist. To me they're all mythology. I can recognize intellectually that someone might feel otherwise, but it's hard for me to imagine feeling that way myself.
Although opposites, I'm not sure if one should consider those "equal" in terms of what is demanded of one ignoring one's personal beliefs. Equivalent, but not equal as what is being asked of one is of not of equal consequence to another. Try thinking of something that, even if restricted purely to role-playing, you just wouldn't enjoy acting out. There may be nothing, of course, in which case yes it will remain a foreign notion.

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
What you describe as "I don't call it magic" is precisely the sort of thing that feels most authentically magical to me.
Oh indeed... which is why it ranges from "boring" to "odious" to one such as myself... most of the time. It may or may not bother others, but think of it as being akin to asking someone to role-play out something that touches upon a personal tragedy or trauma. I do not claim the circumstances to be identical, but merely the easiest way to explain it to someone that lacks similar concerns.
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My GURPS Fourth Edition library consists of Basic Set: Characters, Basic Set: Campaigns, Martial Arts, Powers, Powers: Enhanced Senses, Power-Ups 1: Imbuements, Power-Ups 2: Perks, Power-Ups 3: Talents, Power-Ups 4: Enhancements, Power-Ups 6: Quirks, Power-Ups 8: Limitations, Powers, Social Engineering, Supers, Template Toolkit 1: Characters, Template Toolkit 2: Races, one issue of Pyramid (3/83) a.k.a. Alternate GURPS IV, GURPS Classic Rogues, and GURPS Classic Warriors. Most of which was provided through the generosity of others. Thanks! :)
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