[Basic] Skills of the week: Bioengineering and Biology

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Vynticator

Seems a bit strange that there are no defaults from Biology to any medical skills, given that is the core academic subject which all medics need.

Is it really? The field of medicine is pretty heavily dependent on biological science, for obvious reasons, but most medical practitioners have no reason to really engage with most of that science. And in the other direction, a lot of biologists have no contact with anything medical at all.

Originally Posted by Vynticator

-human and animal anatomies

Yes, but most of the nearly ubiquitious optional specializations will exclude or heavily restrict that.

Originally Posted by Vynticator

-what does and doesn't occur in nature (eg. death, mutation, unusual species/traits/behaviours)

Not really sure what that means. Including death in the list is particularly confusing, knowing death happens is not, in general, something that requires any skill at all...

Originally Posted by Vynticator

-scientific method: keeping samples pure, handling apparatus, the
process of investigation and deduction, extrapolation from results

Most likely, though there really should be a separate skill covering laboratory technique for more accurate coverage. There are technicians who know their benchwork but not so much the scientific underpinnings, and computational (or just senior and away-from-the-bench) biologists who know their science but aren't necessarily aces with a micropipettor.

Originally Posted by Vynticator

-knowledge of current theories, historical theories, current and past eminent Biologists

Likely, yes, science skills kind of have to include a lore section.

Originally Posted by Vynticator

-dealing with infection, disease control, all the 'World War Z' side
of things...

The parts of this a biologist can be expected to have are probably covered in Hazardous Materials (Biological).

Originally Posted by Vynticator

I'd be inclined to give defaults to Physiology and Surgery, albeit at quite severe levels (-5/-8).

At levels that severe, maybe. Bear in mind those should be defaults from Zoology or other applicable specializations. Microbiology isn't going to help you much there.

[Vynticator]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Is it really? The field of medicine is pretty heavily dependent on biological science, for obvious reasons, but most medical practitioners have no reason to really engage with most of that science. And in the other direction, a lot of biologists have no contact with anything medical at all.

It is essential to have Biology and Chemistry to apply for a medical degree in the UK.

Not really sure what that means. Including death in the list is particularly confusing, knowing death happens is not, in general, something that requires any skill at all...

Death: by natural causes, normal for a creature that old, signs of poisoning or disease etc. Is there a gurps autopsy skill? Biology might give you some clues for those kinds of factors in death.

likely, though there really should be a separate skill covering laboratory technique for more accurate coverage. There are technicians who know their benchwork but not so much the scientific underpinnings, and computational (or just senior and away-from-the-bench) biologists who know their science but aren't necessarily aces with a micropipettor.

I don't think we need split skills which are amongst the least used skills in the game down into smaller subdivisions of uselessness. My inclination would be to reward a player taking an academic skill for flavour with some chances for that to shine a bit once in a while.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Vynticator

It is essential to have Biology and Chemistry to apply for a medical degree in the UK.

Any medical qualification, or just the one that makes you a doctor?

And regardless, degree requirements and actual practical requirements don't necessarily have much relation.

Originally Posted by Vynticator

Death: by natural causes, normal for a creature that old, signs of poisoning or disease etc. Is there a gurps autopsy skill? Biology might give you some clues for those kinds of factors in death.

Autopsies are a kind of surgery. (See the text of Forensics.)

Broadly, this is Diagnosis, directed at species other than your own. Biology can (per the box on p181) negate the physiology penalties to Diagnosis in some cases. But it doesn't substitute for Diagnosis.

Originally Posted by Vynticator

I don't think we need split skills which are amongst the least used skills in the game down into smaller subdivisions of uselessness. My inclination would be to reward a player taking an academic skill for flavour with some chances for that to shine a bit once in a while.

I realize neither the authors nor most players care at all about that distinction. I do, so I remark on it.

Not a fan of the theory that academic skills are mostly useless by nature. Almost all skills have a purpose. If that purpose is a bad fit for your gameplay, well. It's not like Games (MOBA, optional specialty DOTA 2) is going to have many adventuring applications, but it seems at least as valid a flavor skill as Biology.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Any medical qualification, or just the one that makes you a doctor?

The way university entrance works in the UK is rather unlike the USA. You take exams at 18 (or later) in 3 or 4 subjects of your choice. You will normally have been studying those subject more or less exclusively for the previous two years. The exams are called "A-levels" (the origin of the name is a bit complicated) and there are several organisations that administer them, and an inspectorate to keep the standards consistent.

To apply for a place on an MD course, or a nursing degree, or pharmacy, or more or less any bio-medical subject, you need good exam grades in biology* and chemistry, and one or two other subjects. There are a range of subjects that would be acceptable, such as maths, physics, and psychology.

Universities select students on the basis of exam grades, interviews, and sometimes other criteria.

*The alternatives to straight biology would certainly include human biology, or zoology. There isn't an alternative to chemistry AFAIK.

[Flyndaran]

Biology is a gargantuan mega-skill as it includes knowledge of literally everything alive on earth from humans to birch trees to deathcap mushrooms to purple nonsulfur bacteria to halophilic archaea. As well how they all relate in ecosystems, react to changes in environment, etc.

[Kromm]

In my paused secret-agents campaign, Bioengineering was used to create a nonlethal bioweapon as part of a caper (namely, to make hotel cleaning staff ill with a "natural" minor disease so that the hotel would be desperate to hire and the PCs could get someone working on the inside), and also to clone tissue to scatter around a blast area to fake a death (it worked). It was the go-to skill whenever an operation faced possible detection via forensic biology.

Biology was useful there mostly when I said, "Roll against the lower of Biology or Forensics." That was usually in the context of detecting schemes like those above . . .

[Randyman]

I missed this the first time around, hence the necro...

I find it odd that Bioengineering has required specializations when it is overall a relatively narrow field when compared to Engineer, which is also IQ/H and also has required specializations. I'm inclined to make the specializations of Bioengineering optional unless something in the campaign depends on the difference between them.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Randyman

II find it odd that Bioengineering has required specializations when it is overall a relatively narrow field when compared to Engineer ...

Actually, it isn't a narrow field. Doing Bioengineering involves tweaking systems that are appallingly complex, as opposed to construction of fairly simple dedicated systems in most fields of engineering.

If you can do biological tweaking in ways that "go with the flow" of the existing systems, such as altering natural selection for selective breeding, or providing disease organisms to activate an immune system in ways that don't kill the patient, for vaccination, then useful bioengineering isn't that hard in principle. But it still involves a lot of skill if you want to do it reliably and efficiently.

However, that's the equivalent in transport engineering terms of using fallen trees as rollers to move a heavy object. The equivalent of building a car is a lot harder, and we aren't there yet.

Edit: If your game is cinematic, then sure, bioengineering is all one thing. But the science and engineering skills are usually written reasonably realistically.

[Randyman]

Originally Posted by johndallman

Actually, it isn't a narrow field. Doing Bioengineering involves tweaking systems that are appallingly complex, as opposed to construction of fairly simple dedicated systems in most fields of engineering.

Most fields of engineering, sure. But look at all the fields covered by the Engineer skill in the Basic Set. Some of those are very complex themselves. Were it not for the clear distinction between biotech and "hard"tech, I'd argue for Bioengineering as a specialization of Engineering.

Originally Posted by johndallman

If you can do biological tweaking in ways that "go with the flow" of the existing systems, such as altering natural selection for selective breeding, or providing disease organisms to activate an immune system in ways that don't kill the patient, for vaccination, then useful bioengineering isn't that hard in principle. But it still involves a lot of skill if you want to do it reliably and efficiently.

However, that's the equivalent in transport engineering terms of using fallen trees as rollers to move a heavy object. The equivalent of building a car is a lot harder, and we aren't there yet.

The listed specializations for Bioengineering don't seem to reflect your analysis of the field. They seem arbitrary to me, and the granularity doesn't appear to match up with the granularity of Engineer. Further, shouldn't the specializations (and their status as required or optional) hold across TLs, at least by the RAW default?

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Randyman

Most fields of engineering, sure. But look at all the fields covered by the Engineer skill in the Basic Set. Some of those are very complex themselves.

Pretty complex, yes. Would you care to nominate a real-world field of engineering where the basic objects you have to deal with are as complex as an immune system?

The listed specializations for Bioengineering don't seem to reflect your analysis of the field. They seem arbitrary to me, and the granularity doesn't appear to match up with the granularity of Engineer.

They are somewhat arbitrary. The knowledge available to design them is pretty limited. Were we in the period where mechanical and civil engineering became scientific, rather than rule-of-thumb, and electricity wasn't well understood, game rules for engineering of lightning conductors would be pretty arbitrary.

Further, shouldn't the specializations (and their status as required or optional) hold across TLs, at least by the RAW default?

Well, no. New specialisations come into existence as new discoveries are made. In the real world, there was no such thing as Engineer (Electrical) at TL3, and in an Infinite Worlds campaign, most worlds at TL8 have no idea of Engineer (Parachronics).