What Did Vephar Do?

[Acolyte]

Vephar is a big mystery to me. One of Oannes' servitors, he Fell and became the first Superior since Metatron to die, and the first Demon Prince to bite it. What was his Choir--and eventual Band (for that matter, what kind of angel was Oannes)? Why was he targeted by Lucifer for rebellion, and why was he so significant he got to be an original Prince?

It's obvious why he was weaker than Oannes--"the Waters" is far more significant than "the Oceans," so Vephar ended up with a much more limited word--why would he accept that? Was that his angelic Word and Lucifer gave it back to him literally unchanged?

What did his Servitors do on Earth? Humanity has feared the ocean, and it is a big source of destruction, but typically only when connected to a tectonic event (in the case of tsunamis) or a storm (for monsoons and hurricanes), both of which fall under strongly-held angelic Words. Was he the destructive wave of a tsunami or the grinding finality of erosion? How was he selfish (other than, obviously, Falling)? What did he promote on Earth?

Where did he and Oannes battle--did this correspond to a human history event (like the Flood that appears in some form in virtually every human culture's oral history)?

Thoughts?

[robkelk]

Canonically, Vephar was a Calabite. (And Oannes' Choir has never been given in canon.) As for the rest of your questions... I don't know.

But answering them would make for an interesting net.book...

[chris the cynic]

Originally Posted by Acolyte

for that matter, what kind of angel was Oannes

My preferred version is that he is a Ofanite because that would mean Waters, Wind, and Fire all match, but given that there is no Archangel of Earth there isn't a reason to group them by element anyway so it breaks down.

Why was he targeted by Lucifer for rebellion

One theory (no idea if it is official) is that Lucifer targeted everyone. If you were in Heaven you were targeted, though you only realized that if Lucifer made progress.

It's obvious why he was weaker than Oannes--"the Waters" is far more significant than "the Oceans," so Vephar ended up with a much more limited word--why would he accept that? Was that his angelic Word and Lucifer gave it back to him literally unchanged?

The way I see it there are two possibilities when you have a Word that overlaps but is less broad than, someone else.

Possibility 1 Their Word subsumes yours, you are less powerful.
Possibility 2 Your Word erodes theirs. Your relative powers depend on a variety of factors. On your turf you may well be quite a bit more powerful.

Consider that Michael's opponent willingly chose the much more narrow Word of the War. He is ceding all other wars, presumably in the hope that he will have more power in the one war he cares about.

Possibly Vephar was hoping that by giving up the rivers, streams, lakes, ponds, puddles, rain and such he would be able to concentrate his power in the oceans and thus be more powerful there.

[William]

Originally Posted by Acolyte

It's obvious why he was weaker than Oannes--"the Waters" is far more significant than "the Oceans," so Vephar ended up with a much more limited word--why would he accept that?

You take what Lucifer gives you and like it...

...more seriously, when you get a Word it's hard not to like it, even if you're the Demon of Stale Bong Water. The reason Lucifer would give him such a Word could be, first, that that was all Lucifer could give, not having access to the broader Symphonic aspects of the Angelic Word of the Waters, and second, that he preferred to give Vephar a Word somewhat different from Oannes to avoid a conflict as direct as that between Gabriel and Belial.

[FireDrakeK]

first of all, the archangel of earth, or stone, WAs a cherub, and is now a malakim. the first malakim infact.

so choir has nothing to do with anything. michel is a sereph afterall, certain choirs are more likely to achieve ends (mark being a mercurian and such) but tons of angels do thigns above and beyond hte expectations of their choir. chours are like nationalities, Americans tend to be boisterious, and japaneese polite, but i've seen some really obnoxious japaneese people and some really polite Americans so whatever.

the constant state of motion found in water makes Ofanim a good choice. it also keeps him diametrically opposed to his calabite rival (just as Revelation and secrets are the same chior, as is War and the War, and Fire and Fire.)

however water is often seen as reflecting pools and purea nd revealing, so serephim could also be a good call. water is considered emotional so i'd say elohim is right out, malakim doesn't fit atall even though i love them to death, and he died long after the grigori were exiled so that's not an option either.

never been a huge fan of posessrs having to do with things that don't have vessels (saminga has always bothered me a little but i see why it happened.

cherub seems a little off to me, unless Oanis would attune himself to sailors, and i just don't see it.

Mercurian kinda works but only kinda.

so my 1st instinct is ofanim, but serephim works well too, and i'd probobally go with the one that is more interesting in your campaign. in my campaign we don't have a lot of ofanim running around, so i might go with a serephim so that when they find relics and leftovers from his reign they have someone to relate to.

but ofanim really does work, sailors, dolphins, migratory birds, it's all pretty movement related, and graceful.

[chris the cynic]

Originally Posted by FireDrakeK

first of all, the archangel of earth, or stone, WAs a cherub, and is now a malakim. the first malakim infact.

Equating Earth and Stone is like equating Animals and Sheep. Stone is a type of Earth, that does not mean it is Earth. David is not soft and yielding soil.

There is no Archangel of Earth, thus it does not make sense to group the remaining classical elements together. Which was my point.

A large part of the reason I like the idea of the Waters being a wheel because the two other classical elements are wheels, but the lack of Earth means there is no sense in grouping them that way. I recognize the irrationality of the reasoning behind my preference.

the constant state of motion found in water makes Ofanim a good choice.

Of course. Then again the diversity of waters forms and dispositions might imply a Kyrio. I would agree that being a Cherub or an Intercessionist seems unlikely and being Grigori is impossible. Being a Malakite leaves the question of what he was before.

An argument can be made for any choir other than Grigori though.

[William]

Originally Posted by FireDrakeK

First of all, the Archangel of earth, or Stone, was a Cherub, and is now a Malakite -- the first Malakite, in fact.

(Uriel was the first Malakite, actually.)

Personally, I find that Kyriotate makes sense for Oannes. Ofanite does too, sure, but we already have two Ofanite elemental Archangels, and only one Kyriotate Archangel at all. The all-embracing nature of the Waters, and its fundamental characteristic of mutability, suggests Kyriotates to me more than Ofanim.

[Edman]

Oannes is described as being mighty, which kinda rules out the Ofanim. They may be many things, but they're not mighty. Kyriotates are sometimes described being just that, so I think that's probably more likely. On the other hand, Water is very connected to the raging subconscious, so I have no problem with an Elohite that carries out his metaphorical task literally. However, all in all, my bet is on Mercurean. Water is, and has always been seen as, a giver of life and Oannes himself was (according to the mythology surrounding the original Oannes) was seen as a teacher and bringer of Wisdom. Makes sense to me then that he was the Choir most attuned to Humanity. Furthermore, the image of a Mercurean wiping the floor with a Calabite is just too precious.

[Notdan]

Originally Posted by FireDrakeK

first of all, the archangel of earth, or stone, WAs a cherub, and is now a malakim. the first malakim in fact.

Second - the first was Uriel, formerly a Seraph

(just as Revelation and secrets are the same choir, as is War and the War, and Fire and Fire.)

Well, the first Prince of Secrets was a Balseraph, but he (along with Mariel) was placed in opposition to Raphael, the Elohite Archangel of Knowledge. The current Prince of Secrets is a Mercurian, whereas the Archangel of Revelation is a Seraph.

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by Edman

Oannes is described as being mighty, which kinda rules out the Ofanim. They may be many things, but they're not mighty. Kyriotates are sometimes described being just that, so I think that's probably more likely. On the other hand, Water is very connected to the raging subconscious, so I have no problem with an Elohite that carries out his metaphorical task literally. However, all in all, my bet is on Mercurean. Water is, and has always been seen as, a giver of life and Oannes himself was (according to the mythology surrounding the original Oannes) was seen as a teacher and bringer of Wisdom. Makes sense to me then that he was the Choir most attuned to Humanity. Furthermore, the image of a Mercurean wiping the floor with a Calabite is just too precious.

Our current "heretical" (i.e., non-canon) campaign has a living Oannes. After much discussion with the players, our GM decided that he fit best as an Elohite. The complete writeup, adapted from several sources, can be found in this post by ISNorden: http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread...ghlight=oannes