The Limits of Dual-weapon Attack?

[Steen]

Hello!

I apologize if this has been asked elsewhere. I've searched the forums, and couldn't find a conclusive answer. The question is simple: when performing a Dual-weapon Attack, what exactly counts as a 'weapon'? I know that fists count as weapons, so would a character with three or more arms be able to perform a Triple- (or more) Weapon Attack? If so, at what penalty? And even without Extra Arms, what about legs and teeth? Would a perfectly normal human be able to perform a Quintuple-weapon attack by attacking once with both hands, both feet, and their teeth in a single turn?

Thank you in advance, and have a great day!

[AlexanderHowl]

I believe that Dual-Weapon Attack actually functions as X-Weapon Attack, where X is the number of manipulators (arms) available to the character. So, a character with eight arms like an octopus could make eight attacks per turn at a -4 to skill. Of course, I may be remembering things incorrectly, as the discussion occurred a couple years ago.

[Ejidoth]

Dual-Weapon Attack lets you attack with two weapons, not all weapons. So having more arms will give you more options of which two weapons to use, but you're still limited to attacking with two.

It shouldn't break anything to house-rule in a Triple-Weapon Attack, Quadruple-Weapon Attack, etc. technique following the precedent for Rapid Strikes: stacking the penalty.

So, dual weapon attack is -4/-8 normally or -4/-4 with ambidexterity.
Triple weapon attack would be -8/-12/-12 normally or -8/-8/-8 with ambidexterity.
Quadruple weapon attack would be -12/-16/-16/-16 normally or -12/-12/-12/-12 with ambidexterity, etc.

[Ejidoth]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

I believe that Dual-Weapon Attack actually functions as X-Weapon Attack, where X is the number of manipulators (arms) available to the character. So, a character with eight arms like an octopus could make eight attacks per turn at a -4 to skill. Of course, I may be remembering things incorrectly, as the discussion occurred a couple years ago.

I think what you're remembering is from Kromm,

Originally Posted by Kromm

Eveything is at -4 for using multiple hands at once. You get one master hand and everything else is at -4 for the off hand. Thus, it's -4/-8/-8/-8. Anything worse and Extra Arms wouldn't be worth 10 points/level.

Treat abilities that remove these penalties normally. Those that remove the -4 for multiple hands at once cost the usual amount and remove up to -4, for at best 0/-4/-4/-4. Those that remove the -4 for off hands cost the usual amount and remove up to -4, for at best -4/-4/-4/-4. Getting both can remove all penalties.

I have not been able to find the rule support for this, however. Everything I can find points to dual weapon attack being restricted to two attacks. It may be buried in Martial Arts somewhere?

[Plane]

I think the problem is that it's implied by the name, we should probably drop 'dual' (two) and call it "multi-weapon attack" instead?

One could view Ambidexterity [5] as buying off a built-in disadvantage called Off Hand [-5] which if using "Modifying Beings With One or Two Arms" is like a -50% disadvantage on one of the Arm [10] beings start with by default.

Another way to look at it might be to assume "off hands by default" and On Hand [5] being a built-in advantage everyone starts with, with "On Hand 2" being what Ambidexterity upgrades it to.

In that case we could look at it being like a +50% enhancement to Extra Arms. I like that since it'd make people start paying more points for that benefit. Making EA more expensive also gives us more flexibility to increase the cost of Extra Legs to 5 per leg instead of 5 per pair.

[Ejidoth]

I think tying the number of attacks directly to the number of arms leads to trouble, given that dual-weapon attack could plausibly also use attacks that aren't arm-based, like wing/tail strikers, headbutts, kicks, etc, and there's no reason extra arms should make those any easier.

Also, dual weapon attack's -4 vs. rapid strike's -6 always seemed to me to be a technique version of Extra Attack and Extra Attack (Multi-Strike), respectively.
Since Rapid Strike lets you stack additional pseudo-levels of 'Extra Attack (Multi-Strike)' for -6 per level, having a multi-weapon attack stack extra -4s for additional pseudo-levels of 'Extra Attack' strikes me as more logical than saying you get Extra Attack Infinity because you took -4 to your attack roll.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Ejidoth

I think tying the number of attacks directly to the number of arms leads to trouble, given that dual-weapon attack could plausibly also use attacks that aren't arm-based, like wing/tail strikers, headbutts, kicks, etc, and there's no reason extra arms should make those any easier.

Originally Posted by Ejidoth

Also, dual weapon attack's -4 vs. rapid strike's -6 always seemed to me to be a technique version of Extra Attack and Extra Attack (Multi-Strike), respectively.

Reminds me of that as well, though there are some key distinctions:

1) DWA has the -1 defend if you use against same target, RS does not
2) RS is bought off as a 'Combination' which has to be uber-specific (must specify not just the weapon but the TYPE OF ATTACK like swing v thrust)
3) as above but combinations also need to specify the hit location too, while buying up DWA does not
4) combinations also can be predictable and give foes a defense bonus against them due to style familiarity, unlike DWA

Originally Posted by Ejidoth

Since Rapid Strike lets you stack additional pseudo-levels of 'Extra Attack (Multi-Strike)' for -6 per level, having a multi-weapon attack stack extra -4s for additional pseudo-levels of 'Extra Attack' strikes me as more logical than saying you get Extra Attack Infinity because you took -4 to your attack roll.

I share your feelings, though Kromm at http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread...92#post1441992 does say in 2012 that the ablity to make these massive DWAs is worked into the 10/level cost of Extra Arms.

That might help explain while it's more expensive than Extra Legs (5 per pair, 1/4 the cost)

Of course... part of the complication here is I've actually seen DWA used with legs (MA190 " a kick, a punch, or both, thrown as a Dual-Weapon Attack.") and Kromm also said in 2009 it's not specifiy to body parts http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...99&postcount=7

If that's the case then the pricing of Extra Arms seems to be something like "extends the DWA cap but only if you're using arms" ie so you can't throw a quadruple kick as a centaur just because you're an octopod who also has 2 extra arms.

In which case I guess there's no way to throw quadruple kicks using DWA unless we could make that an Extra Legs enhancement?

[Black Leviathan]

Originally Posted by Ejidoth

It shouldn't break anything to house-rule in a Triple-Weapon Attack, Quadruple-Weapon Attack, etc. technique following the precedent for Rapid Strikes: stacking the penalty.
.

Extra Arms makes it pretty clear that no amount of extra arms allows additional attacks without the Extra attack advantage. It would seem to imply the maximum amount of strikes you can make with an attack is two. I could see allowing two dual-weapon attacks if you have an extra attack.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Black Leviathan

Extra Arms makes it pretty clear that no amount of extra arms allows additional attacks without the Extra attack advantage.

DWA isn't an extra attack though, it's considered one collective attack with multiple limbs (to split hairs) just like Rapid Strike only uses up one attack.

AOA (Double) should probable be renamed (AOA Extra) since it doesn't double extra/dual-weapon attacks or rapid-strike combinations too. It did used to in 3e double "Full Coordination" but that cost twice as much, so "Cosmic +100%: doubled on AOA" is probably a reasonable modifier for Extra Attack.

Probably overpriced actually since you could just buy 2 attacks for that

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by Black Leviathan

Extra Arms makes it pretty clear that no amount of extra arms allows additional attacks without the Extra attack advantage. It would seem to imply the maximum amount of strikes you can make with an attack is two. I could see allowing two dual-weapon attacks if you have an extra attack.

I like a middle ground idea where you need to have Extra Attack to have more Dual Weapon Attacks but you don't actually use Extra Attack, you just get to replace one attack with the number of limbs if you have enough Extra Attacks.

Originally Posted by Plane

AOA (Double) should probable be renamed (AOA Extra) since it doesn't double extra/dual-weapon attacks or rapid-strike combinations too. It did used to in 3e double "Full Coordination" but that cost twice as much, so "Cosmic +100%: doubled on AOA" is probably a reasonable modifier for Extra Attack.

Probably overpriced actually since you could just buy 2 attacks for that

I made that change and even say it as such to my players. It's much easier to understand it as "You can All Out to get a level of Extra Attack". As for the Full Coordination thing, All Out is -25% IIRC so the enhancement could be worth +75%.