GURPS monsters/NPCs in D&D, take two

[maximara]

Originally Posted by bocephus

Ahhh, uhhh ya... I got nothing for ya. I cant imagine a world where this is needed.

I love GURPS but lets be real, theres very little in D&D that hasnt been imagined and already put on paper (within its genre). Outside of the genre I cant think of a reason you would try to use D&D. There's a tiny bit of wiggle room for stuff up to maybe a Victorian time period but as soon as technology overtakes muscle power in the mainstream D&D falls apart. The things that make it such a power house in its small niiche are the same things that keep it in that niche.

Maybe its more fair to say, "I dont see it, Im just not able to visualize your use case". You might make a case for converting GURPS to D&D but I cant imagine what it is. You would have to show me specific examples of something you would need to mechanically convert this way.

I played AD&D1 back when it was new and I agree with the "I don't see it, Im just not able to visualize your use case" assessment. I have the Dragon magazine CD (issues 1 to 250) and I saw a lot ideas in that that GURPS actually provided some mechanics to.

An interesting adventure that demonstrated the limitations of D&D was City Beyond the Gate which had overly convoluted ways with regards to characters figuring out how modern things worked and a modest list of 'how this spell works differently'. In GURPS it is far easier to run that adventure.

Originally Posted by bocephus

No argument that there ARE things that GURPS has that one might want in D&D. But enough to need to develop a system?

Also whats a "Floating Eye"? not seen that one.

A Beholder's younger cousin, perhaps? :-)

Which brings me to the monsters. Between Dragon Magazine, the Fiend Folio (long before there was WoW there was the D&D Death Knight, ), Fiend Folio II, and all the rest D&D has an insane amount of critters though as Lava Children (Think Alfred E. Neuman and you get an idea what they look like) and Sheet Ghoul ("Killer laundry") shows not all of them were winners.

D&D has more monsters for a dungeon simply because it has been around a lot longer and had a lot more support. The main thing GURPS has is its modular design allowing you to easily build anything you want.

[2097]

Why? Because I have a lot of GURPS books and I just got a huge pile of more of them through the recent kickstarter♥

Originally Posted by ravenfish

My concern would be that, at least in later editions of DnD, the math is fairly "tight"- there are expectations of resilience and damage output for a monster of a given level, which may result in directly converted monsters playing oddly.

That is a perennial problem for railroad DMs and GMs, but we play sandbox where that's not an issue. I'm not serving up a sequence of curated, balanced encounters. I have a big map that they can explore.

Most GURPS "humans" they meet will be pretty low-level. Like let's back-convert the CR1 Thug from the 5e Monster Manual. That's like a DR 2, ST 11 GURPS character with a Mace 12 skill and a Heavy Crossbow 11 skill.

But take someone like Blackbeard from classic Swashbucklers. He is gonna be a horror to fight in combat with his 16 Swordsword skill. +12 to hit, 1d6+12 damage, 22 AC, but his weak saves and low HP make him susceptible to things like the Lightning Bolt spell. A disaster for someone trying to design a balanced battle but perfect for a more free-roaming, exploratory game where things and people just are what they are.

Same for the Creatures of the Night: some of those horrors the party would have no chance against, others they can take down with a bit of strategy and luck, others still are easy one-by-one and scary in a group. That's just what I want♥

Looking at this now, I'm gonna go and edit my post and lower the AC by two. Blackbeard would still hit the 22 cap but normal people like the Thug would become a bit more fun to fight. GURPS' high defenses have been a problem every time I've tried it, especially before I knew about Deceptive Attack.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by 2097

Why? Because I have a lot of GURPS books and I just got a huge pile of more of them through the recent kickstarter♥

I think you missed the point of the why question.

The question is 'why go from GURPS to D&D rather than D&D to GURPS' NOT 'why do this at all'.

Having used AD&D 1 and 2 I can tell you going D&D to GURPS is far saner than GURPS to D&D.

Just look at all the handwaving it took to get the various magic GURPS systems to work in D&D and even that is not entirely balanced.

For example, as I ran a bunch of 100 pt characters (around 5-6 level...it's hard to tell) though Tombs of Horrors and they basically trashed the place...until they got to the demi-lich.

Originally Posted by bocephus

I use oodles of D&D stuff in my games because I have tons of reference material, and I do like the immense variation that exists across the D&D universe.

I think more than anything the problem you will encounter converting D&D to GURPS is challenge level. D&D has a pretty standard character to stat progression, GURPS otoh could start lvl 1 with 125pts, 150pts, 250pts, 500pts. This makes stating out a monster really difficult, and is one of the reasons I primarily stick to the 125-150 range for new campaigns. Its much easier to have variety in your challenges without getting really crazy.

"D&D has a pretty standard character to stat progression"? Only if you use D&D 3.x or higher below that it is a total mess especially if you plot by XP and not by levels - Bard is surprisingly the most powerful class in the game in this regard.

"GURPS otoh could start lvl 1 with 125pts, 150pts, 250pts, 500pts"?

Only if you look at the total cost with high attributes taking up the majority of points. If you go by Point Power Level then no. For reference:

*Feeble: (below 25 points): Small children, mindless thralls, and zombies
*Average (25-50 points): Ordinary folk. Point range of GURPS Historical Folks
*Competent (50-75 points): Athletes, cops, wealthy gentry
*Exceptional (75-100 points): Star athletes, seasoned cops
*Heroic (100-200 points): People at the realistic pinnacle of physical, mental, or social achievement.
*Larger-than-Life (200-300 points): Leading roles in kung fu movies, fantasy novels, etc; GURPS Dungeon Fantasy characters are 250 points.
*Legendary (300-500 points): Protagonists of epic poems and folklore. Monster Hunters are 400 points.
*Superhuman (500-1,000 points): Those who have transcended humanity and powerful creatures of fantasy.
*Godlike (over 1,000 points): True demigods

To claim a 1st level D&D character is a "superhuman" character (barring the ability to roll high attributes) doesn't pass the giggle test.

A long time ago on usenet compared Dai Blackthorn (100 pts in Classic GURPS, ~160 pts in 4e) to an AD&D thief:

Dia's Traps skill is on par with s 9th level Thief and in the areas of Pickpocket, Lockpicking, and Stealth (Move Silently and Hide in Shadows) Dia is slightly better than a 14th level thief.

Assuming AC 10 roughly equates to Dodge 4 (and Parry and Dodge equivalent are in AD&D hit points) Dia hits better than a 16th level thief. Hear Noices (a perseption roll in GURPS) is so pathetic that a 25pt GURPS character with an IQ 11 is better than a 17th level thief which of course puts Dia with an IQ 12 right off the AD&D1 thief table. Interestingly this 160 pt character is not even to 1st level Thief standards in his climbing ability.

[2097]

Not sure a "Why D&D is better than GURPS" rant would be appropriate in here.♥

Both games have their weak spots, D&D with its frustrating levels&XP mindset, and GURPS with its focus on character skill over player skill.

We are all on the same page that combining things we like from separate systems can be a fun way to get more material, as suggested on page B5. Whether that is letting D&D monsters fight GURPS PCs by porting monsters in that direction, or doing it the other way around like I'm doing here.

Could I house rule a version of GURPS that worked the way that I wanted? No character points, no 3d6, no Fast-Talk, no hex grid, one roll per attack instead of attacker/defender rolling separately? Sure, and I just might one day for some future campaign♥
(It's a li'l bit frustrating for purposes of such a house rule set that GURPS isn't open source; I'd be spending a lot of effort doing domething I couldn't easily share. It'd make more sense to make my own game.)

I'm running a big D&D campaign and I'm using sources from all kinds of games. I also have ported over monsters from Forbidden Lands in there and there are a lot of people who think FL is better than D&D as well.

It's weird, for all the talk on p B5 about how GURPS books are universal and can be used with other systems, it's not always clear exactly how to do that. Skill systems like BRP, Fudge and SWN/Traveller map easily enough, I guess, and now D&D DMs can join the fun♥

[maximara]

Originally Posted by 2097

Not sure a "Why D&D is better than GURPS" rant would be appropriate in here.♥

Both games have their weak spots, D&D with its frustrating levels&XP mindset, and GURPS with its focus on character skill over player skill.

That second part makes no sense. Having a 1st level D&D player meet Tiamat is going to have much the same result as a 1st-3rd level character - they ether run away like crazy or they are turned into a bloody smear.

Never mind a player builds a GURPS character rather then being "locked in" to what the class has and weird kludges to get out of that little box. Yes there was that thing in AD&D 2 that allowed you to build classes but it make D&D4 look sane IIRC.

Originally Posted by 2097

It's weird, for all the talk on p B5 about how GURPS books are universal and can be used with other systems, it's not always clear exactly how to do that. Skill systems like BRP, Fudge and SWN/Traveller map easily enough, I guess, and now D&D DMs can join the fun♥

It not weird at all. Each game does its own thing and so expecting exact details is silly. Aftermath! is very different from Boot Hill, which is very different from Judges Guild, or any of the many games that you would have to go to wikipedia or a certain website to even know they existed.

Ignoring the nightmare that is D&D 4e there is a huge range of options even if you ignore the various various suggested patches to D&D that appeared in Dragon magazine or the Complete (whatever) books.

Considering I wrote the GURPS magic systems in D&D way back in 1986 and have tweeked over the years it to be more applicable to D&D beyond 1e while adding more stuff I find that "and now D&D DMs can join the fun" to be ROTFLOL hysterical.

As a D&D DM I was doing this 34 years ago (gads I'm old). The mechanics in supplements like GURPS Magic, Horror, Religion, and Thaumatology are far easier to bring over than the monsters in those works.

Converting a monster from D&D to GURPS is annoying; doing the reverse it is just saner to go with the concept and adapt whatever is in the various Monster Manuals.

[Anders]

Originally Posted by bocephus

No argument that there ARE things that GURPS has that one might want in D&D. But enough to need to develop a system?

Also whats a "Floating Eye"? not seen that one.

Sorry, "Eye of Death", DF Monsters 1 p 14. Basically a large floating eyeball that shoots death and destruction.

[ravenfish]

Originally Posted by Anders

Sorry, "Eye of Death", DF Monsters 1 p 14. Basically a large floating eyeball that shoots death and destruction.

I feel like, with all the beholder-kin available in DnD, there ought to be some that are close enough to run with.

[Stormcrow]

Originally Posted by 2097

It's weird, for all the talk on p B5 about how GURPS books are universal and can be used with other systems, it's not always clear exactly how to do that. Skill systems like BRP, Fudge and SWN/Traveller map easily enough, I guess, and now D&D DMs can join the fun♥

The talk on page 5 of the Basic Set isn't about finding a formula for converting from one system to another; it's about how since GURPS uses real-world units and descriptors instead of abstract and arcane values, it's easy to use another game's products with GURPS and vice-versa.

I am always skeptical of conversion formulas. It is always better to decide what a character or monster is LIKE and express that idea in the native language of the target system. I find your requirement that only a rigid formula will do and that making case-by-case conversions won't to be unjustified and indeed unexplained. If you decide that a GURPS FooMonster has X hit dice and magic ability Y in D&D, and you come up with those just by eyeballing it, so long as all your D&D FooMonsters have the same stats, what's wrong with that?

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

The talk on page 5 of the Basic Set isn't about finding a formula for converting from one system to another; it's about how since GURPS uses real-world units and descriptors instead of abstract and arcane values, it's easy to use another game's products with GURPS and vice-versa.

I am always skeptical of conversion formulas. It is always better to decide what a character or monster is LIKE and express that idea in the native language of the target system. I find your requirement that only a rigid formula will do and that making case-by-case conversions won't to be unjustified and indeed unexplained. If you decide that a GURPS FooMonster has X hit dice and magic ability Y in D&D, and you come up with those just by eyeballing it, so long as all your D&D FooMonsters have the same stats, what's wrong with that?

I fully agree. That is why the D&D to GURPS page is so vague in places. It even points this out several times:

"Because of the flexibility in GURPS there is simply no way to convert a class level combo into a point total. It is better to convert concepts than actual raw power."

"One aspect of D&D attributes that makes them hard to convert is that in addition to adjusting skills most of them confer what in GURPS terms would be called advantages (or if they are low enough disadvantages). Another factor is D&D attributes model things that are done by different attributes in GURPS. "

The reverse is even more true as many things are built-in to the base rules and so don't really show up in attributes and advantages.

For example based on the way D&D handles weapons does this mean that every fighter has Weapon Master [40] "baked in"? If so any converted GURPS "fighter" is going to be at a major disadvantage.

Similarly what in the sam hill do the various types of Unkillable translate too?

[2097]

Originally Posted by maximara

That second part makes no sense. Having a 1st level D&D player meet Tiamat is going to have much the same result as a 1st-3rd level character - they ether run away like crazy or they are turned into a bloody smear.

Yes, that result is fine with our playstyle♥ We don't use a "bash-o-matic" calculator as proposed in "How to be a GURPS GM".

Originally Posted by maximara

Never mind a player builds a GURPS character rather then being "locked in" to what the class has and weird kludges to get out of that little box. Yes there was that thing in AD&D 2 that allowed you to build classes but it make D&D4 look sane IIRC.

This isn't meant as a slam on GURPS because you can use templates there to get little class boxes that are so great from D&D. So that's not really a big selling point for D&D, which is why I didn't bring it up.

Originally Posted by maximara

It not weird at all. Each game does its own thing and so expecting exact details is silly.

This was a li'l misunderstanding, but that's on me, because I wrote "it's not clear exactly how to do that" which I see now was ambiguous. It was read as "it's not clear exactly how to do that" when I meant "it's not clear exactly how to do that".

It's not exactly clear how to use a GURPS book as a supplement for another game. I think I have some pretty good ideas now on how to do that.

Originally Posted by maximara

Converting a monster from D&D to GURPS is annoying; doing the reverse it is just saner to go with the concept and adapt whatever is in the various Monster Manuals.

It's easier to convert from something detailed (like GURPS) to something simple (like D&D) than the other way around.

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

The talk on page 5 of the Basic Set isn't about finding a formula for converting from one system to another; it's about how since GURPS uses real-world units and descriptors instead of abstract and arcane values, it's easy to use another game's products with GURPS and vice-versa.

Yes, that's what I wanna do.♥ Thanks.

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

I am always skeptical of conversion formulas. It is always better to decide what a character or monster is LIKE and express that idea in the native language of the target system. I find your requirement that only a rigid formula will do and that making case-by-case conversions won't to be unjustified and indeed unexplained. If you decide that a GURPS FooMonster has X hit dice and magic ability Y in D&D, and you come up with those just by eyeballing it, so long as all your D&D FooMonsters have the same stats, what's wrong with that?

If I do any such custom conversions, such as eyeballing it or building a similar monster based on something from D&D's Monster Manuals, ahead of time, that's great and I can and will do that.

The point of the formula is to be able to have a book and use stuff from it on the fly.

With our table rules I'm not allowed to make up stats on the fly. I understand that most GMs and DMs don't have such table rules and that's fine♥ Whatever works for your group.♥

Originally Posted by maximara

"Because of the flexibility in GURPS there is simply no way to convert a class level combo into a point total. It is better to convert concepts than actual raw power."

Yes, we all know that character points are 100% meaningless (except for the purpose of turning character creation into a fun puzzly point-allocation minigame that many people enjoy very much, similar to assembling Lego kits).

Originally Posted by maximara

For example based on the way D&D handles weapons does this mean that every fighter has Weapon Master [40] "baked in"? If so any converted GURPS "fighter" is going to be at a major disadvantage.

That's fine♥

That's already similar to how the new D&D works. Like the Thug I used as an example earlier has Mace +4 (the equivalent of Mace-12) and Crossbow +2 (the equivalent of Crossbow-11).

For an all GURPS-example, it's also kinda similar to how wildcard skills work or how classes work in GURPS Ultra-Lite.

We don't need to have the same name for the skill just as long as we both know what to roll. Maybe you are Sword!-12 and the other person is Shortsword-12 and the third person is Knight-2 (two levels of Knight in Ultra-Lite). They all need to roll 12 or lower.

Originally Posted by maximara

Similarly what in the sam hill do the various types of Unkillable translate too?

I don't know what Unkillable is.