Playing Against the Trend: Non-Villainous Anti-PSR, Reactionary etc. Characters

[Flyndaran]

I think that falls under my too cute to eat rule. Cows and sheep are very unattractive, while horses and dogs are pets. It's hard to think of a pet as food. Whales are majestic, and would be akin to eating bald eagles.

There could also be the idea that vat grown flesh is inherently safer or healthier, even if not true. It would make it like the difference between drinking bottled water vs. tap in a third world country. You don't have ethical issues, just a sense of safety.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

So bigot in a sense but not cruel or sadistic?
Personally, I have a sliding scale of "us" rather than fixed categories.

Hmm. Definitely neither cruel nor sadistic. Ambitions, and likes to be in charge, but not a control freak either.

However, if he comes off as a bigot, then I failed to present/express my original concept properly. And that means I have some fixing to do.
I tried very hard to make it obvious that he sees humans, bioroids, and infomorphs pretty much as equals, without any sentiment hatred/intolerance/superiority. I even thrown in (though IIRC not posted here) the fact that he sees 'lowly' jobs as no less worthy of respect than 'prestigious' ones.
Basically, his disagreement with PSR comes not on the pansapient part, but on what he does and doesn't consider as proper rights.

I was trying to add a slight BlueAndOrangeMorality effect, but while I wasn't expected it to be all-encompassing, your comment seems to indicate that it doesn't show up at all.

[combatmedic]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

I think that falls under my too cute to eat rule. Cows and sheep are very unattractive, while horses and dogs are pets. It's hard to think of a pet as food. Whales are majestic, and would be akin to eating bald eagles.

There could also be the idea that vat grown flesh is inherently safer or healthier, even if not true. It would make it like the difference between drinking bottled water vs. tap in a third world country. You don't have ethical issues, just a sense of safety.

That may be.

Then again, whales being 'majestic' never stopped Yankees from harpooning the heck outta them and cutting 'em up for the sweet, sweet oil.
:)


I think cows and sheep are as cute as dogs and cats.

I still eat them, but I don't eat dogs and cats.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by combatmedic

That may be.

Then again, whales being 'majestic' never stopped Yankees from harpooning the heck outta them and cutting 'em up for the sweet, sweet oil.
:)


I think cows and sheep are as cute as dogs and cats.

I still eat them, but I don't eat dogs and cats.

Money and hunger make people see what they want to see. Situational ethics are a basic self defense mechanism. It's easier to feel guilt and moralistic with a full stomach.

I'm not typical of non mammal eaters, as I have no visceral reaction to killing or eating them. Mine is a purely intellectual distaste.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

the fact that bioroids are not allowed to procreate.

Not so. They aren't capable of it. Bioroids are put together out of lots of separate tissue cultures, plus factory-made skeletons and bits of wet nanotech. As of 2100, nobody has the capability to grow all of a child-size bioroid in a single bioreactor, and certainly no bioroid is built with such capability. The capability probably could be developed, if someone had a good use for it, but bioroids are a somewhat obsolete technology, so it seems unlikely that it will happen.

Originally Posted by combatmedic

That may be.I think cows and sheep are as cute as dogs and cats.

My emotional reaction to dogs is "shut up and go away, you nuisance." I recognise that they have their uses, but they have no appeal to me at all. The only issue I'd have with eating them applies to any mammalian carnivore: anything unhealthy in their diet is likely to have been concentrated in their flesh.

[combatmedic]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Money and hunger make people see what they want to see. Situational ethics are a basic self defense mechanism. It's easier to feel guilt and moralistic with a full stomach.

I'm not typical of non mammal eaters, as I have no visceral reaction to killing or eating them. Mine is a purely intellectual distaste.

Yep, tummies matter.

Full bellies, complacent privilege, and a basic lack of awareness/curiosity about history, economics, and the ways of life in other cultures gives some ‘modern’ people the luxury of condemning things like whaling, hunting, and fishing for a living.

:0

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by johndallman

Not so. They aren't capable of it. Bioroids are put together out of lots of separate tissue cultures, plus factory-made skeletons and bits of wet nanotech. As of 2100, nobody has the capability to grow all of a child-size bioroid in a single bioreactor, and certainly no bioroid is built with such capability. The capability probably could be developed, if someone had a good use for it, but bioroids are a somewhat obsolete technology, so it seems unlikely that it will happen.

Yes so. They are capable of it using the standard process by which they came to be - by assembling a body as we know it. Humans would call that a physical adult with synthetic elements. But this is illegal in EU, which is the reason why some states seceded from the EU (IIRC the prime example is Clarke-1).

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by combatmedic

Yep, tummies matter.

Full bellies, complacent privilege, and a basic lack of awareness/curiosity about history, economics, and the ways of life in other cultures gives some ‘modern’ people the luxury of condemning things like whaling, hunting, and fishing for a living.

:0

To a point. Not all morality is completely mobile. I might not be capable of killing a mammal even to survive. I certainly wouldn't allow anyone to kill my cats no matter the reason. I wouldn't hate you for wanting to feed your family, but that wouldn't stop me from using any force necessary to protect mine.

[trooper6]

I was playing Gianni. And he was a bigot in the views of PSR folks. I mean, he didn't believe that bioroids, ghosts, etc had souls...so they were not people. So they shouldn't have the rights of people. Further, treating them like people is idolotry--which also shakes out to him thinking people shouldn't own bioroids, either--certainly not abusing them. Really, he thinks there shouldn't be bioroids or ghosts.

There are going to be people who will find his views to be bigotry, espeically bioroids. And he certainly was a reactionary character--though he would say he was traditional and devout.

But he wasn't a villain. He was a single dad trying to do right by his family and colleagues in a world that he saw as assaulting not only traditional values but also the God's word. He tried not to push his views on other people too heavily, because that is rude and you do have to live in the world. He was no evangelist. But he had a core set of values about how to be a good person and how to make a better world, and he wasn't going to compromise on those values--even though he recognized that he was in an increasing minority--which made him cling harder to his beliefs.

So, vicki, you said you didn't want people to see your character as a bigot...but you can't control that. Lots of people will see your character as a bigot...such is the way of the world. The only thing you can to do is come up with a way for it to work within the internal belief system of your character, and then deal with the consequences of those beliefs in the eyes of others.

What helped I think make Gianni work in the team was that he wasn't a jerk. He had strong beliefs but he wasn't an argumentative difficult person who was alway saying hateful things. He was fiercely loyal and cared about the people he worked with. That goes a long way. Also what goes a long way? That his views were grounded in believable motivation. He had been less conservative when he was younger...but after his wife died in an accident and he became a single dad...he got a lot more conservative. A lot of his conservatism came from grief and alienation and reaction to giving up his dream of living on Mars...and part of being a physical person in a mental world. And a lot of his opposition to bioroids came from being an undercover cop on Mars and seeing how people abused bioroids terribly along with his religiosity. But he wasn't a bad person--though I'm sure bioroids felt he was. He was complicated.

Of course, his views did mean that he wouldn't work on this one case on behalf of a Rogue AI...and it also contributed to the blow-up and firing of the Ghost in a Bioshell Diarmuid--though I really think Diarmuid's betrayal of the team to help the PSR whitemailer escape...I think that was the biggest part of the problem.

But I think that black/white heroes/villains is not how our game worked. Which also helped. whswhs tries to go for nuance, and that helps allow a situation where a reactionary conservative religious guy can be a guy.

I am pretty opposed to most of Gianni's beliefs. But that is why I wanted to play him. I wanted to play someone very different from myself and get in that person's skin and humanize that person. In the end, I became very, very fond of Gianni. Gianni and I struggled about where he would end up at the end of the campaign. I wanted him to develop in direction A...but he (and the situations that happened) had different ideas. I wished I had a longer time period to help him work through some of the things he had going on...and he did word through some things...but he never got to the space where he could completely move on from his wife's death, he still had serious intimacy issues. He did get better in some ways. But Gianni was a very difficult character to move.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by trooper6

So, vicki, you said you didn't want people to see your character as a bigot...but you can't control that. Lots of people will see your character as a bigot...such is the way of the world. The only thing you can to do is come up with a way for it to work within the internal belief system of your character, and then deal with the consequences of those beliefs in the eyes of others.

Well, that's not exactly what I meant. I do expect people to see my character's views as hard to agree with and/or wrong. And in fact I expect people to jump to the conclusion that he's a member of Born Human or something at first. That is in fact why I picked a series of subverting facts in his biography: that he was a corporate property back in the day when PSR was weak, that he didn't and still doesn't regret it, and that he manages to keep his property happy and mentally healthy. (I was actually tempted to play the minion and buy the owner as the patron, but I've never played in that group, so I didn't gather the courage.)

Either way, I do expect to make rivals of the stronger pro-PSR characters, regardless of motivation.

What worries me is that even after I explained his motivation, and pointed out that he does not see any group as 'worse', he comes off as a bigot. Even though his non-PSR memeplex is caused by other reasoning, unrelated to bigotry. Not in-play. In a discussion where his less obvious motivations are examined explicitly.

Originally Posted by trooper6

What helped I think make Gianni work in the team was that he wasn't a jerk. He had strong beliefs but he wasn't an argumentative difficult person who was alway saying hateful things. He was fiercely loyal and cared about the people he worked with. That goes a long way. Also what goes a long way? That his views were grounded in believable motivation. He had been less conservative when he was younger...but after his wife died in an accident and he became a single dad...he got a lot more conservative. A lot of his conservatism came from grief and alienation and reaction to giving up his dream of living on Mars...and part of being a physical person in a mental world. And a lot of his opposition to bioroids came from being an undercover cop on Mars and seeing how people abused bioroids terribly along with his religiosity. But he wasn't a bad person--though I'm sure bioroids felt he was. He was complicated.

Oh, of I am trying to go for complicated. And I definitely am not planning to play him as a jerk. The question is more about avoiding being slapped with the label anyway - basically, how to make the complicated side of the character visible soon enough, soon enough that others are unlikely to jump to stereotypical conclusions.

Originally Posted by trooper6

But I think that black/white heroes/villains is not how our game worked. Which also helped. whswhs tries to go for nuance, and that helps allow a situation where a reactionary conservative religious guy can be a guy.

Oh, the game was advertised as mostly sandbox, and the GM was intrigued to see more GrayAndGrey ambiguities that are bound to come up with the introduction of my character. But that doesn't mean that characters don't unintentionally display certain tropes.

Originally Posted by trooper6

I am pretty opposed to most of Gianni's beliefs. But that is why I wanted to play him. I wanted to play someone very different from myself and get in that person's skin and humanize that person.

That's basically why I picked Caine. Though I must admit that by making him more humane, more justified, I made it easier to myself to accept him.

The original idea was closer to Milton from Devil's Advocate, but let's face it: (1) too capital-E Evil and (2) way more difficult to pull off successfully than I could ever hope to do.