Conservation of Ninjutsu

[Anders]

This.

The trope illustrates that while twenty ninjas mean they're mooks, one ninja will be a monster. In the same way, if you have twenty ninjas and kill nineteen of them, the one remaining will be all the more powerful. This is used in the Chronicles of Prydain where the Huntsmen of Annuvin grow stronger when their comrades are killed.

So, how would you model this in GURPS? Accessibility? I'm frankly at a loss, but I'm not much of a rules-master.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Asta Kask

This.

The trope illustrates that while twenty ninjas mean they're mooks, one ninja will be a monster. In the same way, if you have twenty ninjas and kill nineteen of them, the one remaining will be all the more powerful.

Only if he shows up for the next fight. Then you should give him loads of experience but in the current fight he'll still be one of a group of 20 ninja, even if 19 of them happen to be dead. That's how Conservation of Ninjitsu works. But if it was a one-winged-angel thing, then you have a single arbitrary character who has one extra life, and a bunch of power that has the accessibility limitation, "Only when all of my followers have been killed in battle"

[jacobmuller]

1-of-20 won't need to be more powerful but will be more significant. GM can apply finer control over 1-of-20 than was possible with the 20.
Nor do you have to abide by the trope; 1-of-20 could die faster than the 19 before (fatigued/ suicide/ overwhelmed). Or after losing 6 of their team in short order, the remaining 14 could realise they're out-classed/ out-manoeuvred and break-off the attack/ come back with better tactics.

But if you want a mechanism for Less = Better, you could apply a skill mod according to the number of Mooks, eg Base Skill +0 for 20; +1 for 15; +2 for 10; +3 for 7; +4 for 5; +5 for 3; +6 for 2; +7 for 1.

[Anaraxes]

Something along the lines of Duplication, possibly mixed with Alternate Form with Modular Ability sauce. The ninja share a common point pool, let's say 500 points. You can split that 20 ways, and wind up with 20 25-point mooks. Or you can have one 500-point master ninja. As you kill off the mooks, the points return to the point pool and make the others stronger.

In practice, you are of course not going to stop and redesign the ninjas every time one gets killed. So you'd probably design a version at representative point levels (in whatever detail you like for your NPCs) and just switch character sheets / stats during the fight.

[LoneWolf23k]

Conservation of Ninjutsu only applies when the fewer or single Ninjas appear on their own. The last survivor of a squad of 20 Ninjas will not be any stronger then the rest of his dead squad. But a team of 3-5 Ninja "Elites" will be far more powerful, and a Ninja "Boss" appearing on his own will be a nightmare opponent.

The latest TMNT series actually demonstrated how Conservation of Ninjutsu applied with the Foot Clan: mass groups of Foot Ninjas were easily defeated; smaller groups of Tech-Ninjas were more of a challenge; the four Elite Foot Ninjas were a match for the Turtles, and the Shredder was a Monster all on his own.

[lexington]

Originally Posted by Asta Kask

This.

The trope illustrates that while twenty ninjas mean they're mooks, one ninja will be a monster. In the same way, if you have twenty ninjas and kill nineteen of them, the one remaining will be all the more powerful. This is used in the Chronicles of Prydain where the Huntsmen of Annuvin grow stronger when their comrades are killed.

So, how would you model this in GURPS? Accessibility? I'm frankly at a loss, but I'm not much of a rules-master.

For the Huntsmen of Annuvin I would give them a bunch of Advantages with Only When Allies Die for -40% (it strikes me as slightly more limiting than Emergencies Only). That they slowly gain the advantages is probably a special effect, maybe a +5% improvement.

If I recall they get tougher and faster so it would go on enhanced ST, DX and HT. Ninjas that behaved the same way for some reason would put it on Enhanced Dodge and Striking ST (because groups of ninjas are easy to hit and don't do much damage compared to a single one).

[Bruno]

Hm. The problem with the "only when allies die" approach is that it doesn't really give the stacking, cumulative effect.

Try this:

Each Huntmsman has an Affliction granting whatever the bonuses they give each other are, with the following modifiers:

Reflexive (to make it a "zero time" effect that can happen on someone elses turn)
Area Effect, in however many levels to give the huntsman enough range (where "enough" is defined by however the power is supposed to work)
Selective Area (to hit only other Huntsmen)
Emanation (to restrict it to around the Huntsman)
Malediction (to remove problems with line of sight and cover)
Cosmic: No Roll Required (Because it should Just Work)
Reliable as needed

whatever the heck the cost modifier was for "only usable once, when I DIE" - only usable once is IIRC 1/5th, I forget if the discount for "When I DIE" is another 1/5 for a total of 1/25th or not.

[lexington]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Hm. The problem with the "only when allies die" approach is that it doesn't really give the stacking, cumulative effect.

It could be progressive. I don't think the effect is that big.

There are 20 ninjas with four levels of Enhanced Dodge with Only When Allies Die. Once one has been killed they get +1, once six they get +2, once eleven +3, once sixteen +4. If they had five levels the thresholds would be one, five, nine, thirteen and seventeen.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by lexington

It could be progressive. I don't think the effect is that big.

There are 20 ninjas with four levels of Enhanced Dodge with Only When Allies Die. Once one has been killed they get +1, once six they get +2, once eleven +3, once sixteen +4. If they had five levels the thresholds would be one, five, nine, thirteen and seventeen.

I was thinking specifically of the example of the Huntsmen, not "ninjas", who according to the very brief description in thread above "get stronger" as each Huntsman is killed. No idea how big a group they travel in, but +1 ST doesn't become degenerate nearly as quickly as +1 Dodge does.

[Kromm]

This sounds like Destiny to me. Give all of the ninja Destiny (Defender of the clan's honor) [15]. While many live, this does nothing . . . there's no need for a lone defender, because there's an army of freakin' ninja. As the army gets pared down to a mere regiment, and then all the way down to a lone man, the need for a defender becomes more pressing.

How to quantify this is up to you. I might look at it this way: For an NPC who's going to lose anyway – because that's his job, ultimately – this will matter just once. Think of it as a 1/5 cost, "one use ever" advantage like a Favor. So its actual power is 75 points. If this buys some form of Higher Purpose in levels (which seems fitting), then that would be Higher Purpose 15. So simply treat it as a +15 bonus to all rolls made in combat to defend the clan's honor, divided by the number of surviving clan member and rounded down.

If there are 16+ clan members left worldwide, this does nothing. Once all of the ninja are dead ("It can't be . . .") but the 15 in the secret ninja hideout, this gives +1, rising to +2 when seven ninja remain, +3 when five are left, +5 when the last three masters survive, and +7 when it's just Sho and his brother. In the final fight, the lone defender of the clan's honor attacks and defends at +15, makes all HT rolls and rolls to resist spells at +15, and basically can only be defeated by slaughtering him down to -5×HP with area effects and backstabs he can't dodge at +15.