Why are dwarves Scottish?

[Johnny1A.2]

Originally Posted by William

This last bit is really what has me giving this whole thread the side-eye.

I know John Rhys-Davies is Welsh; I remembered his voice well from other productions. He didn't strike me as Scottish. I've always pictured Dwarves as closer to Norse, drawing mainly on the Tolkien interpretation of the Scandinavian sources. Dwarves are known as mythological entities in several cultures, especially where actual human dwarves are ascribed various magical powers, but the "little folk" of the British Isles mostly seem to fall under the category of various fey in my mind.

Originally Posted by lwcamp

Of course, in a fair amount of popular entertainment, the Norse are also Scottish. I mean, really, what's with that?

Luke

I wonder if 'North' isn't the key word in this.

The Anglo-Saxons were 'nordic' themselves, religiously and culturally and by ancestry, until they converted to Christianity, but they settled in England (Angle-land) and took on a certain amount of Latin influence from the Romanized Britons and then more when they converted to Christianity. Then the Norman Conquest changed things even more. (Not that the Normans were not 'nordic' by ancestry too, but they were even more Latinized than the Anglo-Saxons.)

My point being that maybe the legendary creatures of the pagan past came to be associated with 'northerners' in general, defined against 'southerners' like the Christian/Latinized English. North of England is Scotland, so...

Likewise, that might be part of why the English (and their cultural kin) associate Scotland and Scandinavia, along with the actual substantial presence of Scandinavian influence in Scotland, of course.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2

I wonder if 'North' isn't the key word in this.

The Anglo-Saxons were 'nordic' themselves, religiously and culturally and by ancestry, until they converted to Christianity, but they settled in England (Angle-land) and took on a certain amount of Latin influence from the Romanized Britons and then more when they converted to Christianity. Then the Norman Conquest changed things even more. (Not that the Normans were not 'nordic' by ancestry too, but they were even more Latinized than the Anglo-Saxons.)

My point being that maybe the legendary creatures of the pagan past came to be associated with 'northerners' in general, defined against 'southerners' like the Christian/Latinized English. North of England is Scotland, so...

Likewise, that might be part of why the English (and their cultural kin) associate Scotland and Scandinavia, along with the actual substantial presence of Scandinavian influence in Scotland, of course.

Scotland was also where Saxon nobles tended to go after the Conquest if they didn't feel like rebelling and did not feel like going adventuring in Byzantium either.

[ak_aramis]

Originally Posted by lwcamp

Of course, in a fair amount of popular entertainment, the Norse are also Scottish. I mean, really, what's with that?

Luke

Lowland Scots have a significant number of viking-descended folk.

[khorboth]

I think there's not so much to it. In our medieval settings, we tend to want our English-speakers to have British accents. The nobles have posh British accents, so that lends toward lofty Elves. And then, the harsh-feeling Scottish accent lands on the Dwarves. And the Irish accent might get brought out for gnomes, but most likely gets forgotten along with the Welsh because in America we are ignorant of such things.

This is, of course, painting in broad strokes and thinking about things in a lowest-common-denominator sort of way. Like how Hollywood works. And how radio plays worked. And how I did things as a cringy 13-year-old playing MERP.

I also think that this is why it's hard to pin down the exact origin. It's just a line of "reasoning" that many folk went down independently until it was just "the way of things."

[Stormcrow]

Originally Posted by khorboth

I think there's not so much to it. In our medieval settings, we tend to want our English-speakers to have British accents. The nobles have posh British accents, so that lends toward lofty Elves. And then, the harsh-feeling Scottish accent lands on the Dwarves. And the Irish accent might get brought out for gnomes, but most likely gets forgotten along with the Welsh because in America we are ignorant of such things.

Not to mention that here in America we tend to think — in a stereotypical and unfair way — of Scandinavian accents as sounding comical. Consider the Swedish Chef, who has exactly two gimmicks: violent, slapstick cooking and funny talking. Or consider the subtitles to the open credits of Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

The stereotype of the Scottish accent, on the other hand, is one of wild independence and belligerence, even when that's played for humor, which fits nicely with the dwarvish stereotypes.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

Not to mention that here in America we tend to think — in a stereotypical and unfair way — of Scandinavian accents as sounding comical. Consider the Swedish Chef, who has exactly two gimmicks: violent, slapstick cooking and funny talking. Or consider the subtitles to the open credits of Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

The stereotype of the Scottish accent, on the other hand, is one of wild independence and belligerence, even when that's played for humor, which fits nicely with the dwarvish stereotypes.

Which is kind of weird considering how, well, INTERESTING, Scandinavian history is.

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by khorboth

I think there's not so much to it. In our medieval settings, we tend to want our English-speakers to have British accents. The nobles have posh British accents, so that lends toward lofty Elves.

Next time I play a D&D style setting - East Midlands elf.

[ak_aramis]

Giving it some thought, in general, my elves tend to be PacNW (US/Can) if they have an accent at all. I blame Shadowrun.

I'm guilty of the scots dwarves... But also Irish Dwarves, and New York Dwarves. I don't do scandinavian accents well, so I don't use them, and my German accent is not very German - think Hogan's Heroes level bad, otherwise my dwarves would be German. I even used valley-girl for a group of dwarves...

Gnomes have, for certain games reasons, generally been PacNW US received pronunciation, or zee really ba' frawnnch...

I've used a variety for Orks... including UK RP English. Also, Cajun, Texan, Texicano, and Mexicano.

[smcc360]

Oddly, we've always played them as German. Stereotypically humorless, talented engineers, fond of beer...

[CoyoteGestalt]

For what it's worth, I recall the standard prerecorded voice clips from the old Warcraft video game of the mid 90s having very Scottish voices for the dwarven engineers. Which is definitely pre-Jackson.