A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

[ericthered]

Red will take all out defense (dodge). No step.

The AP recovery roll failed.

[Plane]

MY MANEUVER IS AT THE BOTTOM
- - -
What do you think of possible house rules for crits?

B556
*Critical Hit 7,13,14: instead of ANY damage, sub injury exceeding HP/20. Seems reasonalbe considering you need to exceed HP/10 to cripple an eye.
*CH8: as above, "funny bone" injuries still must exceed 1/2 the normal threshold (so HP/4 for limbs, HP/6 for extremities).
**seeking your input here: that seem too high? perhaps 1/3 the normal or 1/4 the normal?
*CH12: dropping not automatic, instead subtract quadruple Control Points equal to whatever the basic damage is from anything the target is holding, halving per adjacent step like Referred Control, so if you inflict 1 damage, the hand would lose 4 CP if you hit the hand directly, 2 CP if you merely hit the arm, 1 CP if you merely hit the torso, 0 if further.

*Critical Head Blow 3 - instead of ignoring all DR, apply an armor divisor of 3
**seeking input here, does this seem too little? It's enough to ignore the DR 2 standard for human skulls, and more than the "half DR" which is the highest seen in other results. Do you think it should be greater like divisor 5 or divisor 10? Divisor 100 still seems too extreme.
*CHB4,5 as per CH7,13,14 use "more than HP/20" injury instead of "any damage"
*CHB 8 - only knocked off balance if basic damage exceeds HP/20, similar to above except DR doesn't matter.
*CHB12,13 - as with 4,5 sub >HP/20 for "any" damage
*CHB14 - as with CH12, subtract quadruple CP instead of automatic dropping


*Critical Miss 3,4: weapon breaking is not automatic, instead roll swing-crushing damage based on the ST you applied to your attack, and roll on the critical hit table against your weapon.
*CM:7/13: losing balance is not automatic, instead roll swing-crushing damage based on twice the ST you applied to the attack to determine if it is enough to knock you back one yard. if it is, you lose balance.
*CM:8,12 - as with CH12/CHB14, use Control Point reduction instead of automatic dropping. Roll damage as if you had hit (based on ST you intended to hit with) but only subtract 2x the basic damage.
**Something which Unreadies is only half as bad as something which Disarms, since unreadying happens at 1/2 CP needed to wield the weapon.
*CM:9,10,11 except with 4x since the result is intend to drop.
**Ignore the "cheap weapons break instead" bit, instead we need general guidelines for failed disarms (Striking At Weapons) still applying stress to weapons. Really the damage inflicted on a weapon (possibly ignored due to DR) and trying to disarm a weapon by hitting it should be merged into a single indivisible thing. Non-damaging attempts to disarm a weapon are covered by "Break Free" now.
*CM14 : as with CM 9/10/11 except with 5x (it takes more lost control to fling than to drop) the lost CP...
**we need a general rule for if CP goes extremely negative, it counts as basic damage for determining knockback as determined by comparing to the HP representing the weapon's mass


B557
*Critical Miss 15 - crippling of weapon arm is not automatic, instead roll crushing damage based on the ST and nature of your attack (thrust if thrusting, swing if swung) which will automatically ignore your DR (it's internal damage) and treat it as an automatic critical hit against yourself. This is pseudo-damage you will recover within 30 minutes.
*CM16 - as with CM7/13, only fall down if the ST you applied to your attack results in a pseudo-Shove which was enough to knock you around one yard.
**Or, ALTERNATIVELY, treat as a shove with twice as much ST, and make standard DX rolls to avoid falling penalized per yards of knockback (except you aren't knocked back, like with an elbow drop, it is only for purposes of determining if you keep your balance)

*Unarmed Critical Miss 3,18 - instead of automatic self-knockout, your attack (based on whatever ST you applied to it) hits you in the head (we need a random sub-location table to determine if face, skull, nose or jaw) and you must roll on the critical hit table. Standard knockdown/knockout rules apply.
*UCM4 - instead of an automatic loss of 1 HP, treat as CM15
**plus in addition to the pseudo-damage, take real damage equal to the pseudo-damage minus a penalty as per "Defensive Attack".
*UCM7,14- as per CM:7,13 and CM:16 a stumble is not automatic, instead it is a possibility (knockback as if a critical shove) proportionate to the ST applied to the attack (or parry), so that elephants can try to gently shove/trample/parry/obstruct mice using 1/40 their ST with minimal chances of falling down if they miss them.
**Lower-ST parrying should probably be SLOWER though. Last Gasp reduces 1 DX per 10% loss in ST when FP loss reduces them, so that seems like a decent scale to mimic. If you act as if you are fatigued (low ST parries) then the effectiveness of your parries should be similarly reduced. That works out to -1 to parry per 20% voluntary reduction in ST.
*UCM8 - as above but for falls
*UCM9/10/11 - as above, but for lost balance
*UCM12 - as above, but for tripping
*UCM13 - as above, but for dropped guard
*UCM14 - instead of 1d-3 suffer damage from the attack as if it was Defensive (-1 per die, or -2, whichever is greater). This ignores DR but not damage divisors. You are only "off balance" if injury exceeds HP/20.

"Fighters that cannot fall down" rule is same, instead of 1d-3 general injury, suffer the damage from the attack minus a "Defensive Attack" penalty of general injury. Intentionally attacking or parrying at lower than maximal ST should not have the same risks of damage, and lower ST creatures should not have a higher chance of suffering major wounds from critical failures.

ignore the "perhaps your opponent steps on you" option for GMs, that takes control away from the character as to whether or not they WANT to trample you. Accidental trampling rules are a great idea but should be applied in a broader scope, and should only happen accidentally when you "miss" a step (requiring to-hit rolls for steps to find footing that enemies' feet are not occupying!)

- - -

I think you're still 2/10ap 7/10fp 7/10hp (torso hit) and I'm 3/12ap 9/12fp 7/12hp (left leg) ?

Standard attack maneuver (my AP 3 reduced to 2), right-handed grab to your left leg at DX (12-1=11)

rolled a 9, success.

Defend?

[ericthered]

Red steps back, pulling his leg out of the way.

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This may sound weird, but I typically don't use the critical hit tables. I find them too random, arbitrary, and ultimately human-centric.

funny bone injuries I'd favor letting the HP/20 aspect do its work. you don't have to hit yourself that hard to disable a limb.

armor divisor 3 seems elegant enough for head blows. I can't decide if that or AD (5) is best.

[Plane]

WAIT A MINUTE... I think I just assumed you took another All-Out Defense: Increased Dodge like you did the last 3 turns... but you didn't actually SAY that, so did you want to choose a different maneuver and resolve that? We can ignore the below if you want...

attack maneuver, free step to enter close combat with you again, using my un-injured right leg to do a telegraphed grapple a random hit location on you. According to the "Using Your Legs / Grappling with the Legs" rules this would be at -2 to DX. My DX 12 is already reduced to DX 11 via fatigue, so this means I roll against DX 9 to hit. +4 from Telegraphic Attack means I need to make a 13.

I roll an 8, a success (I could've gotten away with not telegraphing! Ugh) random hit location is 9 (chest) sub-location D was 2 so normal chest, not vitals.

You have +2 to defend against this due to the telegraphing, +1 to due to one foe. Dodge or Parry?

[ericthered]

Do you get 10 seconds (I think?) of adrenaline before the 1 damage I did to your leg kicks in to hit the over HP/3? You only have 1 second left after this before it kicks in. -1 to dodge and reduced move.

I'll take the all out defense (dodge), I suppose. He retreats, and dodges at a total score of 16. They are two yards away now, and another all out defense (dodge) is in order.

One more second with no pain in the leg!

[Plane]

Originally Posted by ericthered

Do you get 10 seconds (I think?) of adrenaline before the 1 damage I did to your leg kicks in to hit the over HP/3? You only have 1 second left after this before it kicks in. -1 to dodge and reduced move.

I'll take the all out defense (dodge), I suppose. He retreats, and dodges at a total score of 16. They are two yards away now, and another all out defense (dodge) is in order.

One more second with no pain in the leg!

MA136 says you can ignore it for HTx2 seconds (a little simplistic IMO, you'd think Willpower would factor in somehow, or perhaps certain skills) so initially with HT 12 we were counting down from 24 seconds.

It occurs to me however, that due to the -1 penalty to HT based on lost FP, that my ability to ignore it should be reduced to 22 seconds since HT11*2=22

For that reason, in the future I would say that rather than counting down ("seconds remaining until penalties") it would be better to count up from 0 ("seconds passed") so you can more easily tell when you reach a HTx2 threshold.

I find it more interesting for that to remain "current HT" rather than "HT at time of injury". So conversely, for example, if 30 seconds had passed and I'm suffering the penalties (because I have less than HT 15) but then I put on some magic amulet which gives me +10 to HT and suddenly I have HT 22 and the ability to ignore it for 44 seconds, then the penalties would suddenly vanish (even though I had already started being subjected to them) for the next 14 seconds.

The last time I can find that we kept track of it was when you said there was 8 remaining when you had done a 2nd consecutive Evaluate on January 29 at http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...6&postcount=81 (you had taken over counting since that was my turn). 24-8=16 seconds had passed, at that point. I will look at your subsequent maneuvers in respect to seconds-passed to see if we reached the 22 second mark (due to HT adjusted down to 11 from 12 due to loss of 20% FP)

17 seconds: Feb 12 I think when you chose AOD:Dodge http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...9&postcount=97 you said "again" but I imagine that the previous time you had done so was prior to the 2 consecutive evaluates?

18 seconds: Feb 13 when you threw a kick and missed http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...1&postcount=99

19 seconds feb 26 you did all-out dodge again and stepped back http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...&postcount=105

20 seconds: feb 27 you did all-out dodge but did not step back http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...&postcount=107

21 seconds: mar 12 same thing http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...&postcount=111
*then I tried to grab you using my arm, you successfully retreat-dodged it

22 seconds: today (mar 21) when you all-out dodged + retreated to avoid my leg grapple http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...&postcount=115
*then I tried to grab you using my leg, you successfully retreat-dodged that too

I don't think I have 1 second left anymore. I think penalties would not have applied during YOUR turn (if you had chosen to attack me just now, for example) but now that your segment of the turn has ended, I believe it counts as being more than 22 seconds and I can no longer ignore the first injury due to adrenaline.

In fact, because your 22 second AODD (which I wrongly presumed, but you agreed with confirming) ended BEFORE I did my grapple attempt, that should have been taken into account prior to my choice.

You had brought up a good point earlier though, being at 7/12 HP is entirely due to suffering 5 HP to my left leg, which is "over HP/3, up to HP/2" (tier 3) however that is due to a 2nd injury so tier 3 penalties would not apply until HT*2 seconds after the 2nd injury that brought me to that tier. Until then I would suffer the lower penalties from the lower-tier injury.

The FIRST injury of 4 HP to the left leg is tier 2 ("Injury over HP/5, up to HP/3") so I now suffer:

-3 DX to kick with the injured leg.
If standing, kicking with the good leg is at -1,
but any roll to avoid falling is at -3.
If lying down, there’s no penalty to use the good leg.
Dodge is at -1 and
Move is 80% normal if standing.

If you start ruining my left leg too, all of this would eventually be cumulative, BTW.

This dodge penalty is going to be rough because I'd been relying on that to avoid the penalties to parry kicks or parry attacks targeting my lower body using hands instead of legs (since I cannot do a Leg Parry like you)

As for the effects of the second injury...

it was January 15 when you rolled 2 damage for your critical hit (I didn't get a defense, but luckily you didn't roll any special effects on the crit table) which I reduced to 1 via RWB http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread...10#post2236010

Following that, you did an Evaluate (and stepped back) on Jan 16 http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...7&postcount=69

Jan 17 you followed that with a "Do Nothing" and mentioned 17 turns remaining until pain kicked in http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...2&postcount=71

At that point we were still operating on the assumption of HT12*2=24 seconds, which I believe means that 7 seconds had passed since the first kick.

For that reason, I believe the "adrenaline counter" should be 7 behind the other, so if we are at 22 seconds since first kick, we are at 15 seconds since 2nd kick.

I should upgrade from tier 2 to tier 3 penalties on my left leg after 7 more seconds, possibly less if I lose enough FP to lose another point of effective HT.

LUCKILY: I'm probably not going to try kicking you while I stand up (perhaps if I fall down!)

House rule I think reasonable: even though it only specifies "kicking", I believe it would make sense to apply these DX penalties to ANYTHING done with the leg, including:

*kneeing
*stomping
*trampling
*leg parries/jams
*grappling using the legs
*break free using the legs
*roll with blow against attacks targeting the leg
*avoiding obstacles during a move
*if we were to actually involve some kind of DX roll involved in stepping in general as a house rule
*jumping
*running
*hiking
*any other ideas?

Dodges would be excluded, I would assume the -1 to dodge when standing incorporates the effects of -3 to DX on the leg.

Thought on that? After all, arm injuries say "any action involving that arm" so it seems like an oversight that the penalty on leg injuries should so narrowly only apply to kicking, even if that's technically the RAW.

Based on that, my attempt to grapple you using my right leg (not my injured left) based on my above house-rule should suffer a similar "kicking with the good leg is at -1" meaning my target number should have been 12, not 13.

This luckily doesn't change any results (I still would've hit, even if I hadn't telegraphed it I would've tied the required 8 to-hit) but we should keep it in mind

We are only 1 yard apart (I used my free step to enter close combat to grapple you, since I don't think grappling using your legs is allowed at reach 1 like a kick) since you retreated.

I would've gone down from 2 to 1 AP after trying that leg-grapple. Having experienced pain as a result of doing it, I wise up and...

All-Out Defense: Double using my free step to again narrow the gap from reach 1 to CLOSE COMBAT with you.

Since I make no attacks, your own AOD:Determined Dodge is NOT triggered, so you may make an HT roll (vs 9, due to the -1 to HT we both suffer from FP loss) to try and recover some AP. I believe you also have only 2 AP remaining like I do.

After doing that, please choose your next maneuver at which point it will be 23 seconds since your first kick to my left leg and 16 seconds since your 2nd kick. We can note this in future as (LL4/23s/LL5/16s) indicating how many seconds has accrued since I had suffered enough damage to reach an adrenalin-tracking tier.

You lost 3 HP to a torso hit but there is no need to track that since it didn't even hit the first tier ("Injury over 1/3 HP: -1 to DX for all purposes.") which would require a total of 4 HP to the torso (I really should be trying to do that!)

The only value I might see in tracking that is if we were dealing with a buff system like if magical spells were able to cause a reduction in your total HP (some kind of Affliction: Attribute Penalty) like for example if you were reduced to a total of HP 8 then 4 would be more than 1/3 and counting from that moment WOULD matter... or maybe not? Perhaps you should only count when you drop below that level, which would begin counting from when the total HP was adjusted, not the injury.

CLIFFS: we are occupying the same hex again, left leg is in pain, roll HT v 9 to recover AP, choose your next maneuver.

[Plane]

Regarding the approach of upgrade from tier 2 to tier 3 penalties on the left leg...

I'm not initially sure whether to interpret "any roll to avoid falling is at -3" to apply to ALL situations (kicking or otherwise, like trying to maintain balance due to knockback) or just when kicking with the good leg

I notice there is no penalty listed to avoid falling on the next tier, just "cannot kick with the good leg from a standing posture – your wounded leg won’t support your weight" which implies the above approach could be wrong and that it may only be intended for kicking with the good leg.

your thoughts on that?

Given that kicks with the bad leg are done at -5 to DX, and in the previous tier the DX penalty to avoid falling was equivalent, I'm up to house-ruling that you are -5 to avoid falls once subject to tier 3 penalties (in general, when on both legs) but that falling is automatic when trying to support yourself on the bad leg, at the very least when throwing a kick.

I think grappling with a leg would take at least as long as a kick so it should apply there too (automatic fall) but I'm not sure about kneeing/stomping/trampling/leg parrying since those may not involve trying to support yourself on the leg for a prolonged period of time like kicking does. I think in those cases just doing a -5 to DX to avoid falls would be fine.

I think you SHOULD be able to kick with your good leg if you are suffering a tier 3 injury, but ala "The Karate Kid" it's a suicidal Crane-style kick where you are automatically falling as soon as you do it, and would require a "Break Fall" to land successfully in a crouch (ie how Karate Kid managed to jump off his good leg, kick with it, and then land without falling in a stumble on both legs) otherwise you fall and take damage as normal, and the breakfall should suffer the -5 to DX penalty.

Alternatively: since the 'wounded leg won't support' is only explicitly about Kicking (ie that technique) to emulate the 'Crane Kick', I guess you could consider that a 1-legged Drop Kick and use Slam-like damage calculations.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by Plane

MA136 says you can ignore it for HTx2 seconds (a little simplistic IMO, you'd think Willpower would factor in somehow, or perhaps certain skills) so initially with HT 12 we were counting down from 24 seconds.

Quite. I can see the benefits of keeping it simplistic, but a system that uses a will-based boxing skill seems equally valid.

It occurs to me however, that due to the -1 penalty to HT based on lost FP, that my ability to ignore it should be reduced to 22 seconds since HT11*2=22

For that reason, in the future I would say that rather than counting down ("seconds remaining until penalties") it would be better to count up from 0 ("seconds passed") so you can more easily tell when you reach a HTx2 threshold.

I find it more interesting for that to remain "current HT" rather than "HT at time of injury". So conversely, for example, if 30 seconds had passed and I'm suffering the penalties (because I have less than HT 15) but then I put on some magic amulet which gives me +10 to HT and suddenly I have HT 22 and the ability to ignore it for 44 seconds, then the penalties would suddenly vanish (even though I had already started being subjected to them) for the next 14 seconds.

Exhaustion makes you less able to ignore injury? That doesn't sound infeasible. We can count up.

In fact, because your 22 second AODD (which I wrongly presumed, but you agreed with confirming) ended BEFORE I did my grapple attempt, that should have been taken into account prior to my choice.

We can keep it. Its fine.

I should upgrade from tier 2 to tier 3 penalties on my left leg after 7 more seconds, possibly less if I lose enough FP to lose another point of effective HT.

Or if I manage to kick out your leg before that!

House rule I think reasonable: even though it only specifies "kicking", I believe it would make sense to apply these DX penalties to ANYTHING done with the leg, including:

*kneeing
*stomping
*trampling
*leg parries/jams
*grappling using the legs
*break free using the legs
*roll with blow against attacks targeting the leg
*avoiding obstacles during a move
*if we were to actually involve some kind of DX roll involved in stepping in general as a house rule
*jumping
*running
*hiking
*any other ideas?

*Acrobatics

Yep, its a good idea.

We are only 1 yard apart (I used my free step to enter close combat to grapple you, since I don't think grappling using your legs is allowed at reach 1 like a kick) since you retreated.

Acknowledged.

The only value I might see in tracking that is if we were dealing with a buff system like if magical spells were able to cause a reduction in your total HP (some kind of Affliction: Attribute Penalty) like for example if you were reduced to a total of HP 8 then 4 would be more than 1/3 and counting from that moment WOULD matter... or maybe not? Perhaps you should only count when you drop below that level, which would begin counting from when the total HP was adjusted, not the injury.

That is a really weird edge case. I'd probably suggest counting from the drop, not the injury, just to keep tracking easier.

I'm not initially sure whether to interpret "any roll to avoid falling is at -3" to apply to ALL situations (kicking or otherwise, like trying to maintain balance due to knockback) or just when kicking with the good leg

I notice there is no penalty listed to avoid falling on the next tier, just "cannot kick with the good leg from a standing posture – your wounded leg won’t support your weight" which implies the above approach could be wrong and that it may only be intended for kicking with the good leg.

your thoughts on that?

Given that kicks with the bad leg are done at -5 to DX, and in the previous tier the DX penalty to avoid falling was equivalent, I'm up to house-ruling that you are -5 to avoid falls once subject to tier 3 penalties (in general, when on both legs) but that falling is automatic when trying to support yourself on the bad leg, at the very least when throwing a kick.

I think grappling with a leg would take at least as long as a kick so it should apply there too (automatic fall) but I'm not sure about kneeing/stomping/trampling/leg parrying since those may not involve trying to support yourself on the leg for a prolonged period of time like kicking does. I think in those cases just doing a -5 to DX to avoid falls would be fine.

I think you SHOULD be able to kick with your good leg if you are suffering a tier 3 injury, but ala "The Karate Kid" it's a suicidal Crane-style kick where you are automatically falling as soon as you do it, and would require a "Break Fall" to land successfully in a crouch (ie how Karate Kid managed to jump off his good leg, kick with it, and then land without falling in a stumble on both legs) otherwise you fall and take damage as normal, and the breakfall should suffer the -5 to DX penalty.

Alternatively: since the 'wounded leg won't support' is only explicitly about Kicking (ie that technique) to emulate the 'Crane Kick', I guess you could consider that a 1-legged Drop Kick and use Slam-like damage calculations.

It does feel like the rules are intended to cover falling as a result of kicking. I'd totally allow a PC who was trying to knock over someone with an injured leg a bonus to doing so. The "Do anything with the leg" clause could easily include avoiding a fall.

My moves are coming in a second post.

[ericthered]

Red recovers two AP with very good roll, and continues to all out defend (dodge). Let the bruises on the shin swell. His opponent has more energy, but that won't matter if he can't do his footwork properly.

Red: 4/10ap 7/10fp 7/10hp (torso hit)
Green: 2/12ap 9/12fp 7/12hp (left leg)

18 seconds of count on tier 3 penalties (target 22)

[Plane]

huh, I just noticed that the previous room you set up (room 278) no longer appears, do you think they expire after a few months of inactivity? Can still see room 282.

Originally Posted by ericthered

Red recovers two AP with very good roll, and continues to all out defend (dodge). Let the bruises on the shin swell. His opponent has more energy, but that won't matter if he can't do his footwork properly.

Red: 4/10ap 7/10fp 7/10hp (torso hit)
Green: 2/12ap 9/12fp 7/12hp (left leg)

18 seconds of count on tier 3 penalties (target 22)

Since you do not mention using your free step to move away, I assume we are still in close combat, and that you are reserving your free step to bolster your retreat.

I get my HT-1 (11) roll to recover AP... I roll a 9, so I only succeed in recovering 1 AP, bringing me up to 3.

You're waiting for my Dodge/Move to get even worse so you can control the range? Grappling seems like the only solution!

Making a 2-handed grab for your torso at DX (12-1=11) I roll a 12, and JUST miss because of my fatigue. Ought to have telegraphed that! You do not need to expend any of your free AP for active defenses, so you may make another HT roll to recover some AP, then choose your next maneuver.