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Old 07-21-2018, 02:49 PM   #21
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Phasing for falling down/standing up

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Originally Posted by Rick_Smith View Post
I like rules where the behaviour is different based on the people & situation....
I agree on that part. My additional concern isn't complexity, though, but whether it makes sense, passes sniff tests, and is reasonably fair. The problem with getting up being too fast, to me, is when you can't capitalize on knocking someone down, so in some cases that situation becomes irrelevant - to me, that's a red light that something is wrong with the (basic Melee version of the) rule.


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Originally Posted by Rick_Smith View Post
The other key thing for me, is if you fall down due to damage, that is a big deal. I think that a person who take 8 points of damage (likely more than half their hits), should stand up slower than someone who stumbles because of a trip spell.

See my short post at the top of this thread for how I do it.
Yep, I mentioned before too that there's room for a "slip" or "stumble" effect that would really only last until the figure's next action, but I'd only consign that to minor things (maybe slipping on broken ground without rolling too high). I just differ with you that I think the Trip spell should be a full fall (or better, involve a victim saving throw to see how severe a fall it is).
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Old 07-21-2018, 02:54 PM   #22
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Phasing for falling down/standing up

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Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post
I have been waffling on whether to change that "next turn" to "next attack." Anyone else already playing it as next attack" ?
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Originally Posted by Rick_Smith View Post
I would prefer 'next attack' to the current rules.

(Of course I prefer the rest of this turn and all of the next... that is why it works that way in my campaign.)
I agree with Rick. We always ignored that it said literally "next turn" and figured it must mean "next action". It didn't make sense to us that if you hit someone for 8, they're down, but if you hit someone for 5-7, they have a penalty on their next attack IF they are faster than you, but if they are slower than you, their next attack on you is at full DX, but will next turn be at -2 DX.

(For us, not seeming to make sense was always taken as grounds for "the rule must be wrong" and changing it.)
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Old 07-23-2018, 12:02 PM   #23
Nils_Lindeberg
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Default Re: Phasing for falling down/standing up

Maybe just change stand up to mean you give everyone a bonus on you until we are at the same position in the turn, next turn, as when you fell down. If you fell during movement you are considered standing after movement next turn. If you got knocked down after DX count 13, then you are considered standing up after DX count 13 the turn after. Everybody gets to take an action and only one action (including the one that knocked you over) and your action is spent standing up (but with a delay).

In practice not so hard to keep track of. The big dude with a battle axe knocked me down. After he acts next turn I am on my feet again.

The only problem I can see is if I fall during movement where we went last and next turn we go first. But that can be ruled as. If I already lost one movement due to enemies, then I can take the next turn movement, but if I screwed up during my own movement, I will lose one more.
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Old 07-23-2018, 01:15 PM   #24
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Phasing for falling down/standing up

^ Yes, that's what I meant by:

[LIGHT HOWITZER]
Another (fairer? more equal, anyway) sequencing might be to have people get up at the action point (adjDX) of the attacker when they knocked them down the previous turn, but that's a notch or two of sophistication above most TFT rules.
[/LIGHT HOWITZER]

It seems easy enough to you and me, though I wonder (?) if others might dislike the "complexity"?

It isn't just a matter of remembering who knocked you down, as DX adjustments can throw that off. It's more like, it was either during Movement, or at adjDX 11 or 13... again, I can handle that easily, but there's a line somewhere where some players start saying rules are too complex (which often surprises me where that point is).
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Old 08-10-2018, 08:17 AM   #25
Nils_Lindeberg
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Default Re: Phasing for falling down/standing up

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Originally Posted by Skarg View Post

It seems easy enough to you and me, though I wonder (?) if others might dislike the "complexity"?

It isn't just a matter of remembering who knocked you down, as DX adjustments can throw that off. It's more like, it was either during Movement, or at adjDX 11 or 13... again, I can handle that easily, but there's a line somewhere where some players start saying rules are too complex (which often surprises me where that point is).
All other versions will let faster or slower or the enemy that knocked you down get either zero attacks or two attacks. No other system guarantees one attack for all. Usually not an actual problem when playing. In many games you have spells and effects with duration 1 turn and they last until that initiative count comes up again and disappears right after.

But if I wanted a simple system: I would go with the same rule for both -3 DX and Knock Down. It last until the end of the next turn. But then all effects should last to the end of the turn, spells that are not payed for included. A sort of mop up phase.
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Old 08-10-2018, 02:18 PM   #26
tbeard1999
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Tyler, Texas
Default Re: Phasing for falling down/standing up

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Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post
I have been waffling on whether to change that "next turn" to "next attack." Anyone else already playing it as next attack" ?
We always played it as next attack. Making a figure *possibly* lose two turns of attacks is devastating.

No solution is perfect because the turn sequence is unavoidably artificial. I'd prefer the solution that is the best for game balance.
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Old 08-10-2018, 02:37 PM   #27
Jim Kane
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Join Date: Mar 2018
Default Re: Phasing for falling down/standing up

We interpreted the intent of the penalty to mean: "Lose your next Action Phase."

That way regardless if a figure knocked down before or after that figure's action phase, that figure will only suffer the loss of 1 Attack Phase; and not 2 due to timing which crosses over two combat turns.

JK

Last edited by Jim Kane; 08-10-2018 at 02:37 PM. Reason: Typo
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Old 08-10-2018, 06:41 PM   #28
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Phasing for falling down/standing up

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Originally Posted by tbeard1999 View Post
We always played it as next attack. Making a figure *possibly* lose two turns of attacks is devastating.

No solution is perfect because the turn sequence is unavoidably artificial. I'd prefer the solution that is the best for game balance.
From a game balance perspective, if there is a special attack option like Shield Rush or Unarmed Combat II "throw" or the Trip spell (cost: 2 ST), which take an entire turn and very well may fail, then having a success only inconvenience the target for only one action makes those options mostly a losing proposition except in special circumstances, because the person using those options certainly loses an action doing it, and may fail.
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Old 08-10-2018, 09:43 PM   #29
JLV
 
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Location: Far northern California
Default Re: Phasing for falling down/standing up

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Originally Posted by Jim Kane View Post
We interpreted the intent of the penalty to mean: "Lose your next Action Phase."

That way regardless if a figure knocked down before or after that figure's action phase, that figure will only suffer the loss of 1 Attack Phase; and not 2 due to timing which crosses over two combat turns.

JK
That's the way we did it too. Though any specific spell effects that contradict that override the rule...
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Old 08-11-2018, 10:45 AM   #30
RobW
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Default Re: Phasing for falling down/standing up

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"Standing up happens after all other actions" is an interesting idea. I am now most furiously thinking about that. What would it break?
One thing it "breaks" IMO is the elegance of the current 'stand during movement' rule in Wizard/Melee. All other posture changes take place during movement. From that perspective, standing from prone uses all available movement, and so no other actions are available, just as if you moved your full MA while upright.

In contrast, the new 'stand after all actions' adds another phase to the turn. Does it come before or after forced retreats?

eg Figure X is knocked down Turn 1 after taking his action. On turn 2, X gets hit again by Y (not too hard!), and after all other actions X stands up. Can X now be force retreated?

So now to accommodate increased kicking while down, a new phase has to be added to the turn. Either:
Initiative, Renew Spells, Movement, Actions, Forced Retreats, Standing Ups
Or
Initiative, Renew Spells, Movement, Actions, Standing Ups, Forced Retreats

Also, 'stand after all other actions' would need to add rules to be clear in what order figures stand up, as it could affect engagement possibilities in the event of multiple figures taking this option.

Last edited by RobW; 08-11-2018 at 10:49 AM.
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