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Old 05-29-2018, 10:24 AM   #21
ecz
 
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Default Re: HEAL spell?

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Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post

Comments: There is no HEAL spell in the original game because of concerns that it would make an adventuring party too self-sufficient.
This.

I did not create an Heal spell in my CG for the same reason. I have instead created bigger healing potions (magic) and an healing unguent (available in the chemist's shop) to let the players to heal more hits at a reasonable price. But they are basically "hard-to-find" items to hold under control.

Besides the chemist's product gives also unpredictable collateral effects in case of abuse.

I would avoid a heal spell that would become a "must" like the "illusion" spell every wizard automatically choices. It also penalizes the P/MP career.

I would leave any healing enchantment to the cleric-priest type heroes.

my two (euro) cents
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Old 05-29-2018, 10:28 AM   #22
Jim Kane
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Default Re: HEAL spell?

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Originally Posted by Kirk View Post
One could limit the healing to a Physicker-like approach, one spell per incident of damage, to keep things from becoming ridiculous, as has been mentioned, with cleric style characters as Insta-Heal abusers.
Another more direct limiter against abuse(s) would be to charge the spell cost to the caster directly AS DAMAGE AND FATIGUE, and move it from the Thrown Spell classification, to the Special Spell classification - and attack the problem from the other direction.

a Heal Spell might then read as follows:

************************************************** *****

IQ 13 or 14: LAYING OF EMPATHIC HANDS (S): Absorbs, as healing, 1 hit of injury for every (3, 4, or 5) hits of direct damage AND fatigue the caster is willing to incur by laying hands directly on another in a magical exchange of life-forces.

Because of the highly-dangerous and delicate nature of magically manipulating the active life-force energies involved which activates this special absorption spell, the cost to cast, is taken NOT ONLY as fatigue from basic spellcasting, but ALSO as DAMAGE FROM INJURY suffered DIRECTLY by the caster, just as if having been hit by a weapon in combat.

And no, armor, talents, and spells do not protect you.

For this same reason, the cost to cast CANNOT be drawn from the strength of others, nor from any type of stored strength battery, or magic item - the backlash of attempting to balance and control the complex energies of more than two people would kill any additional person involved in the attempted magical operation, the caster, and possibly even the injured person in need of healing.

Because this spell requires direct physical contact between two people adjacent to each other, and the manipulation of magical and ACTIVE life-forces, it CANNOT be "stored" in any type of magic item, such as a scroll or amulet. Empathic Hands WILL also restore lost fatigue from spellcasting, etc., but rarely is it practical to use it this way. Empathic Hands will cure hits already lost to disease and poison, but it will not cure the disease nor make a poison go away.

*************************************************


Okay, that might to be enough to keep the abusers from "gaming the game".

JK

Last edited by Jim Kane; 06-01-2018 at 01:13 AM. Reason: Typo(s)
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Old 05-29-2018, 11:40 AM   #23
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Default Re: HEAL spell?

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Originally Posted by Jim Kane View Post
While an exceedingly logical idea SHOSTAK, do you think that method would feel very "magical" if we were to negate the "within the twinkling of an eye" instant-effect? How specifically would this be different than a Wiz with the Physicker Talent? And if no instantaneous benefit/result, where would the "magical effect" be with that method; other than the Wiz would not need a Physicker's Kit to perform said healing?

Can you clarify with more details, please.

Thanks.

JK
My preference for he "Presto! You're healed!" in a twinkling of an eye would be for the caster to need the Wish spell. I'd let the Heal spell augment what can be accomplished by Physicker (so, not able to be cast repeatedly on the same set of injuries). And, I think 4:1 is a better ratio than 3:1. Will it feel magical? If you let a wizard with no healing skills to lay hands on a wounded character and tend them for a while to heal points as per Physicker talents, that seems magical enough to me. And it keeps the gritty feel of TFT. Or, the spell could just halve the normal healing time on a character (but it should cost a boatload of Fatigue). That's pretty miraculous!
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Old 05-29-2018, 12:05 PM   #24
Jim Kane
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Default Re: HEAL spell?

Thanks for the clarification SHOSTAK.

JK
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Old 05-29-2018, 12:16 PM   #25
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Default Re: HEAL spell?

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Originally Posted by tbeard1999 View Post

I’d suggest a “cinematic” group of healing spells like this:

IQ 10: Minor Healing (T) - Cost 1 ST. Heals two points of physical damage.

IQ 13: Major Healing (T) - Cost 2 ST. Heals four points of physical damage.

IQ 16: Critical Healing (T) - Cost 3 ST. Heals six points or physical damage.

Rules for healing spells:

-Cannot heal fatigue (this stops wizards from creating a perpetual motion ST generator)

-Higher level spells include lower level spells.

-A figure can receive one healing spell after each combat. The spell can only heal new damage received after the last healing spell was cast. In other words, healing spells work like physicker/master physicker talents.

-In non-cinematic campaigns, healing spells are considered identical to physicker/master physicker talents. I.e., a Minor Healing spell replaces a physicker’s healing abilities.

This is along the lines I was thinking, so if you don't like the two-tiered approach I put before, then I like this the best. I kept in the quote what I like, I would need more time reading and being convinced all of the rest of the text is necessary.

This feels very TFTish, is fairly straightforward, rewards higher IQ wizards, and keeps it from being gamed too much. It lets Physicker and Master Physicker have their look and feel, and this is the wizardly approach.

I would have to think about whether this Heal spell should be able to be used in conjunction with Physicker/Master Physicker. Would either one count as the healing allowed to a set of damages after or during a combat, or could both be used? I might tend to favor the former, but see a case for being able to use both.

We ought to mention the spell Aid, which "can" pump up someone's strength very temporarily, but we primarily use it for quick DX or IQ jumps for critical situations, so Minor/Major/Critical Healing spells don't really conflict with the Aid spell.
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Old 05-29-2018, 01:05 PM   #26
Jim Kane
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Default Re: HEAL spell?

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Originally Posted by tbeard1999 View Post
Heh. As David suggested above, what’s the main purpose of healing spells? For me, it is to enable classic dungeon crawls.

And Steve’s spell pretty much fails to do that. It isn’t a bad spell, necessarily. But it’s not particularly useful for dungeon crawls either - you have to burn out a high IQ Wizard for a modest benefit.
And as DAVID B reiterates what I was clamoring-on about in the Blunderbuss Question; I need the Vison, Mission, and Goal to make any semblance of intelligent and informed feedback, free of speculation and assumption.

Personally, I really like the fact that it "wastes your wizard" if you invoke this spell - I gave my reasons in my first post.

Okay TY, thanks for showing up and sharing your thoughts; but would you now please tighten it up, and state your feedback as it could appear as RULE - as the rule would appear in it's rough-draft form - to make it as succinct as easily digestible as possible?

I think that might be most directly beneficial.

I already went ahead an did this with my feedback under "Laying of Empathic Hands"; and left the actual Cost/Effect and IQ details for SJ to wrestle down on his own, so I stated the RULE as I am most comfortable with it - free of commentary - as it might appear in TFT:AW, and in player-speak; not designer-speak.

To be fair to SJ, and not risk losing a single good idea from ANY member of the forum, I think it would be great if everyone who really feels they have a SOLUTION, would take some time and follow suit - using SJ's draft as the reference draft - not their own personal healing magic rule(s) - and working it up from there. I think it would be great if we could get EVERYONE together on that "feedback format", unless only making a single point or two.

With the goal that we would be giving SJ what he specifically asked us for: Comments on HIS one proposed rule for a single healing spell.

Can we ALL agree to get together on this? SKARG? KIRK? RICK? PHIL?. LADDER?. DAVID B?. SHOSTAK? LARS?, TOMC? ETC?

I do not relish the task ahead for SJ of having to read everyone's "stream of consciousness"; insightful as it may be.

JK

Last edited by Jim Kane; 05-29-2018 at 06:16 PM. Reason: Typo & Clarification
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Old 05-29-2018, 01:56 PM   #27
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Default Re: HEAL spell?

Yes, Jim, it's a bit like being an engineering project manager with good talent in a brainstorming session!

Of everything out there, this is what I think would be accepted by my group as TFT for reals 2018 that won't break the game and would be used. As most everyone has mentioned, injury should be serious, dungeon crawls are nice but being injured just might make you a liability, which is what makes TFT *great* as a game, because it increases the tension in the game between the players and the mission itself.

We don't want special rules for the varied dungeons, quests, or a quick encounters. Here is my suggestion based on what I have seen, heavily borrowed from tbeard1999...

Also, since Physickering usually takes 5 minutes plus per character, the provision that it can only be used after a combat isn't too hard to enforce. A thrown spell like this happens in 5 seconds, so we need to consider if a wizard could heal a just injured individual, then repeat for each subsequent injury inflicted in subsequent combat turns, or truly limit it to a spell after the engagement has been concluded by making it take 5 minutes to cast, or something equivalent.

I have made it a Special spell for these reasons.

************************************************** **********
Spells:

IQ 10
Minor Healing (S) Cost: 1

Heals 2 points of physical damage.

Takes 5 uninterrupted minutes to cast, subject must be within 1 MH of the caster.

Heal will cure strength already lost to disease and poison, but it will not cure the disease nor make a poison go away. It is possible to place healing magic into an artifact, but such things are rare and costly, and work no better than a mage with the Heal spell and a strength battery or a corps of apprentices.

Healing scrolls, on the other hand, are common. As with other scrolls, the magic comes from the scroll and the strength comes from the caster. Heal will also restore lost fatigue from spellcasting, etc., but rarely is it practical to use it this way.

This spell acts similarly to the Physicker talent in that it can only be used once for damage to each character after a combat, and can only be used again on the same character to heal newly acquired damage in later combats, not to exceed that new damage. It can be combined with the Physicker talent, but total damage healed may not exceed the most recently acquired combat damage.

IQ 13
Major Healing (S) Cost: 2

Heals 4 points of physical damage. A higher level version of Minor Healing, and includes it.

IQ 16
Critical Healing (S) Cost: 3

Heals 6 points of physical damage. A higher level version of Major Healing, and includes it.
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Old 05-29-2018, 03:02 PM   #28
tbeard1999
 
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Default Ty's Healing Spells and Items

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Kane View Post
...Okay TY, thanks for showing up and sharing your thoughts; but would you now please tighten it up, and state your feedback as it could appear as RULE - as the rule would appear in it's rough-draft form - to make it as succinct as easily digestible as possible?

I think that might be most directly beneficial.
HEALING SPELLS
Cinematic Campaigns

Healing spells heal ST lost from physical damage. They do not restore ST lost from fatigue or spellcasting. A wizard can heal any figure after any combat or accident. Healing spells cast on the same wounded figure are not cumulative. However, a wizard can cast a higher IQ healing spell on a figure who has already received a lower IQ healing spell. The higher level spell costs the normal amount of ST to cast, but will heal the difference in damage between the lower IQ spell and the higher IQ spell.

A wizard gets +4 DX if he or she spends a full minute (12 turns) casting a healing spell. A wizard can cast a healing spell normally in combat, but this will count as receiving a healing spell after the combat and is subject to the same restrictions. Also, remember that this is a thrown spell. That means that in normal combat, a wizard will be at least -1 DX.

Healing spells will cure ST already lost to disease and poison, but will not cure the disease nor make a poison go away.

A healing spell counts as 2 points of damage healed by a physicker or master physicker. Heroes with the master physicker talent can learn healing spells for 2 IQ points instead of 3 IQ points. They also do not suffer the normal DX penalty for heroes casting spells.

If you use a non-standard system for death, a healing spell should stop bleeding, etc.

See the chart below for Healing magic items. Healing scrolls are common. As with other scrolls, the magic comes from the scroll and the strength comes from the caster. A minor healing scroll costs $200; a major healing scroll costs $400 and a critical healing scroll costs $600. They are a bit cheaper than healing potions (q.v.), but require casting. Scrolls cannot get the +4 DX bonus by taking 12 turns to cast; the standard rules for scrolls apply.

Examples
Assume that Cyril knows Critical Healing; Darin is a physicker and Errol is a master physicker. Melio takes 7 hits in the first turn of a combat.

Example 1 - During the Combat: Cyril can try to heal 2, 4, or 6 points of damage with Minor Healing, Major Healing or Critical Healing. If successful, (a) any later healing spell will be reduced by 2, 4 or 6 points in effectiveness, as applicable; (b) Darin cannot heal any damage; and (c) Errol can only heal one point of damage. This lasts until Melio is damaged again after this combat.

Example 2 - After the Combat: Cyril can try to heal 2, 4, or 6 points of damage with Minor Healing, Major Healing or Critical Healing. If successful, (a) the spell is reduced by 2, 4, or 6 points as applicable if Melio has already received a healing spell during or after the last combat; (b) Darin cannot heal any damage; and (c) Errol can only heal one point of damage. This lasts until Melio is damaged again.


Optional Rule: Allowing seriously injured TFT characters to completely heal after each fight might be a little too generous. Therefore, limit the maximum amount of healing (including physickers/master physickers) to 1 less than the total lost in the last combat.

So if Bob takes 4 points of damage in a combat, he can only receive 3 points of healing.

Using this rule means that injured figures will always lose at least 1 ST per combat, therefore degrading over time. A figure with ST 12, who is damaged in each combat, will be at ST 6 after six combats. At that point, he may want to head home...

To be inserted in spell lists:

IQ 10: Minor Healing (T) Heals 2 ST of physical damage. 1 ST.

IQ 13: Major Healing (T) Heals 4 ST of physical damage. Figures who know this spell also know Minor Healing. 2 ST.

IQ 16: Critical Healing (T) Heals 6 ST of physical damage. Figures who know this spell also know Minor Healing and Major Healing. 3 ST.

ADDITIONAL MAGIC ITEMS
Cinematic Campaigns

Minor Healing (Lesser Magic Item)
Cost: $2000
Notes: I
Weeks to Make: 2
ST/Day: 175
Cost/Wk of Ingredients: $230
2 doses healing potion ($300); $160 c.i.

Major Healing (Lesser Magic Item)
Cost: $4000
Notes: I
Weeks to Make: 4
ST/Day: 175
Cost/Wk of Ingredients: $230
4 doses healing potion ($600); $320 c.i.

Critical Healing (Greater Magic Item)
Cost: $6000
Notes: I
Weeks to Make: 6
ST/Day: 175
Cost/Wk of Ingredients: $230
6 doses healing potion ($900); $480 c.i.


Notes:
I. Self-powered versions of this item do not exist. However, they can be enchanted to include a special purpose ST battery. This adds the same cost and requires the same ST/ingredients as a ST battery. This ST battery does NOT count as a separate magic item and the ST battery can ONLY be used to power the item. For instance, a Major Healing ring with a 5 point ST battery would cost $9,000 ($4,000 + $5000 for the ST battery), plus the cost of the ring. It would require:

Weeks to Make: 6
ST/Day: 134
Cost/Wk of Ingredients: $605 (includes a $1000 gem)
16 doses healing potion ($2400); $230 c.i.; gem worth $1000+[/SIZE]

HEALING SPELLS
Non-Cinematic Campaigns

These spells work exactly like the physicker or master physicker talents, except that no physicker's chest is required and the healing takes place instantly.

A wizard gets +4 DX if he or she spends a full minute (12 turns) casting a healing spell. A wizard can cast a healing spell normally in combat, but this will count as receiving a healing spell after the combat and is subject to the same restrictions. Also, remember that this is a thrown spell. That means that in normal combat, a wizard will be at least -1 DX.

Healing spells will cure ST already lost to disease and poison, but will not cure the disease nor make a poison go away. If you use a non-standard system for death, a healing spell should stop bleeding, etc.

Healing spells are treated as though the physicker or master physicker talent is used. So after being injured, a figure can be healed 3 points by a master physicker or by a master physicker spell, but not both. If a figure receives a 1 point First Aid spell, after the combat is over, he can later be healed an additional 1 point by a physicker or 2 points by a master physicker.

To be inserted in spell lists:

IQ 9: First Aid (T) Cost 1 ST. Lets the wizard use the physicker talent (q.v.) on one figure, but only 1 ST lost from physical damage is healed. No physicker's chest is required.

IQ 11: Physicker (T) Cost 1 ST. Lets the wizard use the physicker talent (q.v.) on one figure. No physicker's chest is required to heal the normal 2 points of damage.

IQ 14: Master Physicker (T) Cost 1 ST. Lets the wizard use the master physicker (q.v.) talent on one figure. No physicker's chest is required to heal the normal 3 points of damage. A figure who knows this spell must also know the Physicker spell.

ADDITIONAL MAGIC ITEMS
Non-Cinematic Campaigns

First Aid (Lesser Magic Item)
Cost: $1000
Notes: I
Weeks to Make: 1
ST/Day: 175
Cost/Wk of Ingredients: $230
1 dose healing potion ($150); $80 c.i.

Physicker (Lesser Magic Item)
Cost: $2000
Notes: I
Weeks to Make: 2
ST/Day: 175
Cost/Wk of Ingredients: $230
2 doses healing potion ($300); $160 c.i.

Master Physicker (Greater Magic Item)
Cost: $3000
Notes: I
Weeks to Make: 3
ST/Day: 175
Cost/Wk of Ingredients: $230
3 doses healing potion ($450); $240 c.i.


Notes:
I. Self-powered versions of this item do not exist. However, they can be enchanted to include a special purpose ST battery. This adds the same cost and requires the same ST/ingredients as a ST battery. This ST battery does NOT count as a separate magic item and the ST battery can ONLY be used to power the item. For instance, a Physicker ring with a 5 point ST battery would cost $7,000 ($2,000 + $5000 for the ST battery), plus the cost of the ring. It would require:

Weeks to Make: 4
ST/Day: 113
Cost/Wk of Ingredients: $815 (includes a $1000 gem)
12 doses healing potion ($1800); $460 c.i.; gem worth $1000+


Designer's Notes: http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...8&postcount=31

Last edited by tbeard1999; 05-29-2018 at 09:34 PM.
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Old 05-29-2018, 03:31 PM   #29
Shostak
 
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Default Re: HEAL spell?

ALTERNATE HEALING SPELLS

Healing (S) (IQ 14)
Heals up to 2 hits AND 4 fatigue on any physical being after any combat, disease, or accident. Will not cure a disease or neutralize a poison, but will heal damage caused by them. Healing spells are NOT cumulative; Healing can only be used once per set of related wounds or damage. Healing DOES stack with Physicker and Master Physicker. This spell takes 5 minutes to cast, with the wizard concentrating the entire time, and it requires the caster to touch the subject either directly or with a wizard’s staff.
Cost: 4 to heal 1 hit and 2 fatigue, 8 to heal 2 hits and 4 fatigue.

Greater Healing (S) (IQ 16)
As per Healing, but heals 3 damage AND 6 fatigue. This spell does not stack with Healing; if cast on wounds already treated with Healing, this spell only heals one extra point. Characters who know this spell also know Healing at no extra cost.
Cost: 10
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Old 05-29-2018, 03:42 PM   #30
larsdangly
 
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Default Re: HEAL spell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Kane View Post
LARS, your post is as puzzling to me as a fortune-cookie LOL! Are you saying that SJ's draft on the Healing Spell is good to go "as is", or are you agreeing with KIRK's mathematical thesis ?

Please clarify further at the usual standard of your normally brilliant and impactful elucidations and pontifications on all matter TFT; so we are all clear on just what it is you are agreeing to, and why.

Besides, I enjoy your posts so much, and that one, left me feeling a bit ripped-off LOL!

Thanks.

JK
Sorry for the cryptic missive; I was in a rush!

Anyway, my feeling is that, as for all suggestions about TFT, the approach to healing should be kept simple and maintain something close to the balance currently in the game. So, if I were in charge, and in the mood to respond to the longstanding outcry for a TFT healing spell, I would look at the way healing works now and craft a new path that gets you to more or less the same place, with more or less the same trade offs of pre-requisites and expenditures.

The two ways of 'assisted' healing in the game as it stands are the Physicker talents and healing potions. Both Alchemist and Master Physicker require IQ 14, so that is a reasonable place to put the IQ threshold for an equivalent spell. Master Physicker is limited to 3 points per injury and use of the talent. Healing potions are unlimited in principle and have low material costs, but given the cost in time to make them, an alchemist who did nothing but make and administer Healing potions full time could only cure 52 points per year, total. So, we should not think of this as something that is available in unlimited amounts.

As a compromise that respects these precedents, I would assign a Healing spell an IQ minimum of 14, limit it using the rule of 5 (no more than 5 points healed per casting) and assign a cost of 5 ST per point cured, effectively reversing the trade represented in Drain Strength. I would also be fine with Steve's suggested 3:1 trade. Or if someone wanted to do it as a 2:1 trade I wouldn't be offended.
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