[ATE] Firearms, TL, Cost, and explanations for availability

[phayman53]

I really love the ATE line so far (I have ATE 1 and 2), but I have a question about the new way equipment costs are handled as it relates to firearms and tech levels and how you would justify RAW to your players.

To explain: items that are above TL4 cost a multiple of their base value determined by how many TL they are above TL4. The (sensible) justification for this is that post-apocalyptic tribes/communities/organizations would stabilize at about TL4 in their ability to produce technological goods--at least on a widespread scale. My problem with this really only comes with firearms. It seems to me that there is a lot of difference between TL4 through early TL5 firearms--which use black powder and (mostly) caseless loading methods--and late TL5-TL8 firearms--which use jacketed bullets, smokeless powder, and metal cartridges. The former tend have much looser tolerances and have bullets and powder that can be made using widely available ingredients. The latter seem to require more advanced manufacturing techniques, ingredients, and materials. Because of this, I can see why newly made TL4-early TL5 firearms would start to be made and widely available as things stabilize after the apocalypse, but it is harder for me to see why late TL5 (using cased rounds) and TL6 era firearms should get a significantly smaller cost multiplier (and therefore be more common) than TL7 and 8 firearms. TL7-8 firearms sometimes have more advanced materials (and this is usually in the stock and its accessories, especially at TL8) and benefited from experience in weapon design, but are not usually fundamentally more difficult to make than TL6 firearms with the same action types (bolt, lever, semi-automatic, or fully-automatic). So, if new firearms are being made by gunsmiths, a semi-automatic M-14 is not much harder to make than an M1 Garand (both are steel with wood stocks and use gas piston driven actions), so why should the TL6 to TL7 difference make such a huge difference in cost? Furthermore, TL7-8 firearms exist in much greater numbers immediately pre-apocalypse than TL6 and late TL5 firearms (at least using a TL8 apocalypse for a society like ours), so many more would have survived the apocalypse, making the cost less comparably prohibitive. [EDIT: One obvious example of this: would it really be easier to find, and therefore less expensive to own, an M1 Garand than an AK-47? The costs by ATE rules is $2040 for the Garand and $3600 for the AK-47.]

My question is, how do you explain why it is easier to afford a WWII era semi-automatic than a Vietnam era semi-automatic? Or a TL5 lever action than a TL6 bolt action (which really cannot be that much harder to make)? I know it is post-apocalyptic fiction and therefore should not be held under a realism microscope, but I am interested in how you would explain it to a player who claims that it might be easier to find a bolt action or semi-automatic rifle (TL6-8) than a lever action rifle (TL5, less popular after TL6) or .41 cal derringer (not overly common IRL, but standard equipment on the Raider template in ATE2).

[Minuteman37]

I've voiced similar complainants to PK regarding the TLs too. the gist of it is that PK (understandably) didn't want to go through each and every item in Low and high tech and reprice each one individually. So this was easiest solution that still made some sense when looked at from afar.


The root of the problem is that every TL start date though defined by a radical new technology (like the dawn of Nuclear power that marks the crossover from TL6 to TL7) it still is the same for every field of technology. So you inevitably end up with situations where tech that should be one TL get's bumped up a level becouse it just happens to be invented at the right time.

[Minuteman37]

Oh, to actually answer your question (sorry). This is going to heavily depend on your particular End, but a very destructive End like a MAD could remove a great deal of pre end gear. Bonus points if you set it somewhere like England that has fewer guns and a more concentrated population.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by phayman53

My question is, how do you explain why it is easier to afford a WWII era semi-automatic than a Vietnam era semi-automatic? Or a TL5 lever action than a TL6 bolt action (which really cannot be that much harder to make)? I know it is post-apocalyptic fiction and therefore should not be held under a realism microscope, but I am interested in how you would explain it to a player who claims that it might be easier to find a bolt action or semi-automatic rifle (TL6-8) than a lever action rifle (TL5, less popular after TL6) or .41 cal derringer (not overly common IRL, but standard equipment on the Raider template in ATE2).

I have seen gun geeks mention that modern ways of making firearms are often more efficient (eg. creating the raw materials in close to their final form, rather than grinding huge amounts of high-grade steel away). This is one reason why later smokeless-cartridge firearms are often cheaper than earlier ones, and why replicas of early firearms often have differences from the originals. But after the apocalypse, the tools and economies of scale which make those efficient processes possible are gone ... and the handgun with a double-stack magazine is likely to be more valuable than the mid-20th-century design with half the capacity!

If you want a realistic take on firearms in a particular post-apocalyptic scenario, there are experts who can write it for you for a fee. Pyramid 3-88 has an introduction. In most scenarios, that will probably mean more repeating firearms, and less ballistas, axes, and random spiky things, than in Mad Max, so realism has costs ...

I would expect that the Raiders' deringers were made after the end by people without the tools and power and materials to make better handguns, but their nail boards and chains are even more driven by the rule of cool! If you don't have to hide your weapons, or pretend they are 'just tools, officer! I was repairing my hog, that is why I have a chain in my pocket.' then real weapons work better.

[safisher]

The pricing scheme is simplistic. It's universal for all gear, and it's easy to use. It's not realistic, it's just a game conceit (of which there are many in GURPS and other rpgs). The actual prices in High-Tech were historical prices, pulled from period catalogs at the introduction of the gear.

In ATE it would be just as realistic to price firearms by caliber (small, shotgun, rifle) and action (manual and semi/full) and magazine (internal or detachable). So a single shot 12 gauage bolt action would be cheaper than a pump 12 gauge, both would be more expensive than a 22 bolt, and the AK-47 would be at the high end.

[ericthered]

In general, there is a connection between rarity and price, but there is also a connection between utility and price. In a setting oriented around practical matters (such as ATE), an semi-automatic weapon is always worth more than a bolt action, which is always worth more than a muzzle-loader.

Part of the trick for making things work is being able to identify when the core technology is the wrong TL: bolt actions should always be charged as though they were TL 6: this includes both nominally TL 8 sniper riffles and the lever action riffles that showed up at the very tail end (but common focus period) of TL 5. Both should probably be charged a TL 6 markup.

Its also worth noting that over time the low tech version do become more common because they are easier to make. A single guy (with know-how) in a shop can churn out muzzleloaders. Whereas you're not going to see many additional AK-47's show up.

[phayman53]

Originally Posted by safisher

The pricing scheme is simplistic. It's universal for all gear, and it's easy to use. It's not realistic, it's just a game conceit (of which there are many in GURPS and other rpgs). The actual prices in High-Tech were historical prices, pulled from period catalogs at the introduction of the gear.

I realize that, I was just wondering if anyone had thought of an explanation that would aid in suspension of disbelief should someone object to rifles, shotguns, and pistols (or types of them) that are relatively rare now being more common post-apocalypse. I tend to have a strong simulationist streak and therefore spotted a potential conceptual world-building problem for players like me.

Originally Posted by safisher

In ATE it would be just as realistic to price firearms by caliber (small, shotgun, rifle) and action (manual and semi/full) and magazine (internal or detachable). So a single shot 12 gauage bolt action would be cheaper than a pump 12 gauge, both would be more expensive than a 22 bolt, and the AK-47 would be at the high end.

Originally Posted by ericthered

In general, there is a connection between rarity and price, but there is also a connection between utility and price. In a setting oriented around practical matters (such as ATE), an semi-automatic weapon is always worth more than a bolt action, which is always worth more than a muzzle-loader.

Part of the trick for making things work is being able to identify when the core technology is the wrong TL: bolt actions should always be charged as though they were TL 6: this includes both nominally TL 8 sniper riffles and the lever action riffles that showed up at the very tail end (but common focus period) of TL 5. Both should probably be charged a TL 6 markup.

Its also worth noting that over time the low tech version do become more common because they are easier to make. A single guy (with know-how) in a shop can churn out muzzleloaders. Whereas you're not going to see many additional AK-47's show up.

These are good points, and maybe one should go off of the TLs in the equipment tables in the Basic Set, and the prices there for any post-apocalypse manufactured weapons, than the more specific prices in HT. The Basic Set prices and TLs seem to, in general, increase price with capability and group things in TLs more smoothly than the realistic HT tables do. As an example, following the pattern in the Basic Set, a 9mm (ish) SMG that has Acc 3 would get the TL6 price multiplier even if it was manufactured in TL7, while one with Acc 4 would be TL7 regardless of manufacture date.