TL 3-4 Slave Prices

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

What keeps slaves in the U.S. from doing so? Usually not knowing the language and the possibility of being sent back to someplace far worse.

Making something illegal certainly doesn't completely stamp it out.

There was one story in the news of a Portland girl who was kidnapped by a brothel and did exactly that.

But such things are not always feasible. Even in Western countries where the police are nearby and more or less dependable.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

What keeps slaves in the U.S. from doing so? Usually not knowing the language and the possibility of being sent back to someplace far worse.

Yes. That's basically correct.

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Making something illegal certainly doesn't completely stamp it out.

True. And that's usually my point. I have nothing good to say about the approach where GM's go "and this particular [metaphysical action] is illegal in this word, therefore nobody does it".

Ars Magica's Mythic Europe world got it right. Dealing with Demons is illegal for members of the Order of Hermes, but nevertheless it still gets done, just in secret. And since it is recognized by the Order as being an extremely dangerous practice, the Order's motivation to actively enforce that particular law whenever it finds evidence of it having been broken, is realistic.

Same with the OP. Slavery is illegal, but he's not making it illegal because he doesn't want to deal with it at all, because he's smart enough to understand that he can't avoid dealing with it even if he wanted to, since slavery is realistically inevitable in such a world.

[Anthony]

Slaves can also be black market goods without slavery being illegal, because of some other illegal activity associated with the trade -- nonpayment of taxes, improper paperwork, this particular individual is not a legal slave (for example, it might be that only foreigners and heretics can be enslaved), slaves being imported from an unapproved source, etc.

[Verjigorm]

This is why it's important to define your slavery. Slavery in the american south and slavery in west africa were contemporary, but they also differed drastically.

Is slavery inherited? Is slavery permanent? How do you become a slave?

Chattel slavery, as practiced by the southern united states in particular, was inheritable and permanent. You became a slave by being born a slave. Even after the continent of africa was not being directly plundered, slavery was a thriving, booming business. But you didn't become a slave by debt(thought indentured servitude was a real thing, it didn't have the same constraints as slavery).

In west africa, slavery was different. Your cows broke loose and ran through a neighbors fields, ate up his crops? If you couldn't pay for the damages, you would be his slave for five or ten years, work for him and pay off the damages. If you were fighting and lost? Slave for a while. But generally, you were not born a slave, and your slavery wasn't permanent.

In chattel slavery, there were very strong efforts made to prevent literacy among the slaves. Teaching a slave to read or write was a hanging offense for white people in the south. Which also makes it interesting that both Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson taught slaves to read, as well as manumitted many of the slaves in their power, yet fought for the confederate south and slavery. Mind boggling, really.

But different varieties of slavery exist, and pricing slaves is going to depend on the types of slavery present. A professor might be useful if your society recognizes him, but if he's only worth how strong and fit he is?

[Flyndaran]

Just like how every society's sexism is different. Western glass ceilings are very different from being kept illiterate and beaten for gits and shiggles.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Just like how every society's sexism is different. Western glass ceilings are very different from being kept illiterate and beaten for gits and shiggles.

While we're at it, glass ceilings are not a matter of strictly sexism, but rather of the fact that promotion decision-making algorithms are sufficiently obfuscated that it's impossible to quickly prove that someone has been wronged, and often not possible to prove it with a large amount of time either, largely amounting to 'I know it when I see it, because I said so today'. Same thing about beatings. Those things you mention are tools of oppression, they do not necessarily tell us much about the internals of the oppressive mechanism, and can even give misconceptions about what exactly the enslavers are striving to achieve. These things are indeed highly complicated.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

But the whole "this action is illegal" thing doesn't make much sense in a TL3 context, and advancing to TL4 doesn't improve much. It's not like there are cops and so forth at low TLs. Rather, laws are enforced by those who have the might to enforce them, when they can be arsed to enforce them. Rather than the universe being divided cleanly and logically into things and actions that are legal and things and actions that aren't, it's a lot more fuzzily about what you think you can get away with doing.

There are still laws though. Law codes date clear back to the origin of writing if not before that. Just because enforcement mechanisms were sometimes iffy, doesn't mean there were no laws. And there are professional law enforcers at TL3 and 4, they may be scarce in Europe at times, medieval Western Europe seems to have gotten along with a lot less government than is typical, and they may not always do their jobs, but they do exist.

Incidentally there are black market in things that can be legal to own, but not for *you* (age restrictions on drugs are about the only form of that left but class restrictions used to be common), or which aren't legal to sell right *here* (it violates somebody's monopoly, there is a set marketplace somewhere else, it requires guild membership). These sorts of things may be better enforced because the injured party (offended nobles, monopoly holder, etc.) is more important than some slave.

[Ashtagon]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

The whole "slaves as black market" goods makes little sense, though. If slavery is illegal, why can't the slaves just run to the nearest law enforcement office, and report that they've been the victims of a crime?

Slavery is illegal in the UK. And yet...

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...iously-thought
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30255084

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by malloyd

...
Incidentally there are black market in things that can be legal to own, but not for *you* (age restrictions on drugs are about the only form of that left but class restrictions used to be common), or which aren't legal to sell right *here* (it violates somebody's monopoly, there is a set marketplace somewhere else, it requires guild membership). These sorts of things may be better enforced because the injured party (offended nobles, monopoly holder, etc.) is more important than some slave.

Felons owning firearms is the first thing that pops up to me.
Prescription medications as well.
Sumptuary laws.

[gruundehn]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

So my rough estimate "Cost of labor for a year" still holds.

I don't remember where I got that notion, but it's the price I've used in games for ever.

I cannot remember where I ran across that same bit of data. As was mentioned earlier, this will vary depending upon the market - recent wars etc.

This means that other than the poor, most people could afford a slave or two.