Steel lance rules?

[Rasna]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

That's great, thank you!

I think, however the calculated changes should be for 'sticks' rather than 'hafted weapons' since a lance has no head:



Giving:
Steel Lance, $300, 8lb., ST14.

Well, Low-Tech considers the Ahlspiess to be an unthrowable Spear made of steel (DR 6) with no changes in cost and weight.

A lot of XIX century steel lances have hollow shafts in order to cut down the weight, and for the same reason solid shafts made of metal are usually much thinner than wooden shafts.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Rasna

W

A lot of XIX century steel lances have hollow shafts in order to cut down the weight, and for the same reason solid shafts made of metal are usually much thinner than wooden shafts.

Yes, te weight f the Uhlans lance in the first post is for a hollow shaft and it isn't any heavier than any of the wooden-shafted spears in Basic. higher DR is probably the only change.

Anyway, while the Uhlans lance is used one-handed it's not truly "couched". It's for spearing fleeing infantrymen and giving the user a little more reach than a saber.

If soemone did make a chivalric lance out of metal it would have to be hollow to keep the weight down to something a human could hold with one arm. If it was used to charge another horseman at full speed and to strike his armor or shield forcefully there would be 3 possible outcomes:

1. The hollow metal tube bends rather than breaks
2. The lance is kicked out of the user's grip by the impact
3. The user manages to hold on but his arm gets broken by the impact.

"User retains grip on undamaged lance and can pull it out of his foe and charge the next guy." isn't one of the possibilities though the Uhlans lance can theoretically do this but it's used with Spear Skill and does no more damage than the User's ST allows.

[Willy]

Remember that a lot of pre WWI lances had predetermined breaking points, like a part of the lances shaft behind the head made of lacquered cardboard. The lance should be able to penetrae a foot soldier not a metal armor or even dismount yourself. There were no longer special saddles that helped to stay mounted.

[Rasna]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Yes, te weight f the Uhlans lance in the first post is for a hollow shaft and it isn't any heavier than any of the wooden-shafted spears in Basic. higher DR is probably the only change.

Anyway, while the Uhlans lance is used one-handed it's not truly "couched". It's for spearing fleeing infantrymen and giving the user a little more reach than a saber.

If soemone did make a chivalric lance out of metal it would have to be hollow to keep the weight down to something a human could hold with one arm. If it was used to charge another horseman at full speed and to strike his armor or shield forcefully there would be 3 possible outcomes:

1. The hollow metal tube bends rather than breaks
2. The lance is kicked out of the user's grip by the impact
3. The user manages to hold on but his arm gets broken by the impact.

"User retains grip on undamaged lance and can pull it out of his foe and charge the next guy." isn't one of the possibilities though the Uhlans lance can theoretically do this but it's used with Spear Skill and does no more damage than the User's ST allows.

And that's why I have given the stats for a steel GURPS Long Spear with Butt Spike and not for a steel GURPS Lance.

During the XIX century, European cavalry units armed with long spear use them with an underarm grip, switching to an overhand grip in some situations. That's it, Spear skill. If the couched lance technique was still in use (Lance skill), then its use was occasional at best, for all the reasons that you have quoted.

Talking about XIX century warfare, a long spear is still useful on horseback for three reasons:
1) It gives a massive advantage in charge over enemy cavalry having only swords as melee weapons;
2) It makes easier for the cavalryman to fight against isolated enemy infantrymen equipped with a bayonet-tipped musket:
3) As you said, it makes easier for the cavalryman to kill fleeing infantrymen.

About the stats for the weapon, I would give those for a Fine All-Steel Long Spear with Butt Spike:

$160 ($60 for Long Spear, +$20 for Butt Spike, +1 CF for All-Steel construction; Fine quality is for free because TL5), 5 lbs. (2 kg), DR 6, HP 13, -1 to odds of breakage.

One hand: thr+3 imp / Reach 2, 3*/ Parry 0U / ST 11
Two hands: thr+4 imp / Reach 2, 3*/ Parry 0 / ST 10†
One hand, Butt Spike: thr+2 imp / Reach 2, 3*/ Parry 0U / ST 11
Two hands, Butt Spike: thr+3 imp / Reach 2, 3*/ Parry 0 / ST 10†

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Rasna

Because of TL5, you can treat it as Long Spear with Butt Spike of Fine Quality (at no additional cost) or Very Fine Quality (at Fine Quality cost) and entirely made of steel (the weapon gets DR 6 instead of DR 4).

B274
The quality costs change at TL7, not TL5, surely? (B274)

[Rasna]

Originally Posted by Rupert

B274
The quality costs change at TL7, not TL5, surely? (B274)

True. Fine for free is from TL7+

That steel lance would be $880 then. The other stats remain unchanged.

[DanHoward]

You WANT a couched lance that can break. If you hit the wrong way and the lance doesn't break, you will be taking some serious damage. No, you won't go flying off the back of the horse - the high saddle cantle will keep you seated so you can absorb all of the impact through your body. A wooden lance acts as a circuit breaker. Any stats for a steel couched lance should include a life threatening injury on a critical failure.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

Steel Lance, $300, 8lb., ST14.

Way too heavy.

Per this site,

The lance carried by the uhlans (and after 1889 the entire German cavalry branch) consisted of a 3.18 m (10.4 ft) long tube made of rolled steel-plate, weighing 1.6 kg (3.5 lb). The lance carried below its head a small pennant in different colours according to the province or state from which the regiment was recruited. The four edged spear-like point of the shaft was 30 cm (12 in) long and made of tempered steel. The butt end of the shaft was also pointed so that (in theory) the lance could be wielded as a double-ended weapon.

Weight & Reach is almost exactly identical to a Spear (p. B273) rather than a Lance (p. B272).

I'd treat it as a Fine-Quality Spear with a Butt-Spike, available at Good-Quality prices at TL6. Maybe give -1 to standard spear damage but Armor Divisor (2) due to the narrow, chisel-like point. Give it a -2 penalty to be thrown. No boost to HP because of the lighter weight and hollow shaft.

It probably wasn't used like a lance since AFAIK Ulhans didn't use the high-cantled medieval war saddles typically require to use Lance skill.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

You WANT a couched lance that can break. If you hit the wrong way and the lance doesn't break, you will be taking some serious damage. No, you won't go flying off the back of the horse - the high saddle cantle will keep you seated so you can absorb all of the impact through your body. A wooden lance acts as a circuit breaker. Any stats for a steel couched lance should include a life threatening injury on a critical failure.

I expect that a steel lance that wasn't prohibitively heavy would be too thin to be all that rigid. It likely bends and crumples instead of breaks, but the net effect is likely similar.

Steel tube tool handles thin enough to have the same weight as wooden ones have roughly the same yield strengths, or a bit less. This is why the high end stuff leans toward fiberglass or carbon composite, though shock mitigation does play some role too.

[Willy]

Originally Posted by malloyd

I expect that a steel lance that wasn't prohibitively heavy would be too thin to be all that rigid. It likely bends and crumples instead of breaks, but the net effect is likely similar.

Steel tube tool handles thin enough to have the same weight as wooden ones have roughly the same yield strengths, or a bit less. This is why the high end stuff leans toward fiberglass or carbon composite, though shock mitigation does play some role too.

As I´ve posted above the modern lances and long spears used for riders had a prdertiminated breaking point often in form of laquerd cartboard, or a weakened aka even thinner point of the shaft. Even after 1884 in europe this weapon was issued to units and units were convertet to lancers. Most of the shafts were still ash and cast steel was introduced. A high backed saddle medieval stile was no longer in use.