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Old 10-14-2020, 05:23 PM   #11
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Weapons, Strength, and Damage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terquem View Post
... It seems that weapon damage should never have been tied to weapon type but should have, from the beginning been tied only to ST and weapon type should have been used for all other rules not directly related to doing damage
Yes, and I would say that it is tied to ST. The damage for all the ordinary hand weapons is tied tightly to ST (with pole weapons doing one less base damage than others). The name is largely arbitrary, but chosen to reflect relatable weapon types/names.

See for example "Other Names for Weapons" on ITL p.111.

It's only one further step to allow smaller or larger versions of the listed weapons, as long as it doesn't seem wrong to the players.

So a ST 10 "halfling halberd" polearm would be one less damage than another ST 10 weapon, so compare hammer at 1d+1, -1 = 1d. Since that's what a 1-handed spear does with one hand, probably have it require two hands to do 1d. Rather like a trident... I guess the other remaining "trade space" is whether it requires 2 hands, and whether it allows a 2-hex jab or not. Since tridents and javelins only require one hand, it seems to me there's room for a 2-handed polearm at ST 10 doing 1d damage that can do a jab.
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Old 10-14-2020, 05:27 PM   #12
phiwum
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Boston area
Default Re: Weapons, Strength, and Damage

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Originally Posted by Terquem View Post
No, not exactly.
A halberd is ST 13, 2d, right

So a halfling has a halberd made for her.

Her ST is 10
Her weapon would be 2d-1 or 2d-2, depending on what "round damage down" means. And there would be no DX penalty assuming she had the pole arm talent (lack of talent is the only precursor I would apply a negative DX with)

Now the whole thing is falling apart in my head. If you have a ST of 14 you don't do more damage, right?
It seems that weapon damage should never have been tied to weapon type but should have, from the beginning been tied only to ST and weapon type should have been used for all other rules not directly related to doing damage
The typical listed ST 10 weapons are Saber and Hammer. They do 2d-2 and 1d+1, respectively, so have average damage of 5 and 4.5, respectively. A polearm does one less damage than a sword or ax/hammer/mace, to compensate for its benefits.

I would model a hobbit halberd as one of the following:

(A) Damage is 2d-3, +1 die for charging, jab.
(B) Damage is 2d-3, +1 die for charging, no jab.
(C) Damage is 2d-2, +1 die for charging, no jab
(D) Damage is 2d-2, no polearm benefits.

Okay, I don't like (C), because the abilities of (C) are the same abilities that javelins have (other than throwing), and javelins do one less than a rapier or hatchet.

I don't like (A) because a hobbit polearm is surely shorter than a spear.

That leave (B) or (D). Here, there's a choice to be had. Is a hobbit polearm sufficiently long to act first when charging/being charged? Or is it shorter than a javelin (which is 5 1/2')?

A halfling is, I'd think, about half as tall as a human, so 3' tall. A human's halberd is 2 to 2 1/2 yards, so half of that is 1 to 1 1/4 yards, which is shorter than a javelin.

Eh, I think you could go either way on (B) or (D). I guess I'd kinda like to go with (B), since otherwise, it ain't much of a polearm at all. I don't think it's reasonable to allow a halfling to use a halberd long enough to jab, however, unless he's a remarkably buff halfling and has the strength for a "real" halberd.

ST must be tied to weapon damage when one uses too big weapons, since they can't strike with enough force. You could argue that seriously overstrength users should get a bonus to damage (like some games do), but I don't think it adds much to the game. Want to do more damage? Use a weapon suited for your ST. (I guess ST 20 characters can complain that they should get better damage than a Battle Axe delivers, but I don't have that much sympathy. It's 3d. Live with that!)

ETA: I wrote an awful lot, just for Skarg to suggest that you take spear and decrease the damage by one. That's a pretty good solution, too. I'm a bit ambivalent about the jab. I'd keep the charging bonuses.

Last edited by phiwum; 10-14-2020 at 05:32 PM.
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Old 10-14-2020, 06:29 PM   #13
Terquem
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Idaho Falls
Default Re: Weapons, Strength, and Damage

I want to thank everyone for their imput. I think I now what I want to do for my own games in the future.

All base damage is a factor of ST, talents can modify this damage

All weapons other than bows and crossbows will not have ST requirements

A weapon used one handed will allow a +1 damage modifier
A weapon used two handed will allow a +2 damage modifier

Bows and Crossbows will have a ST rating and you must have the ST of the bow or crossbow to use it*
*exception, a cross can be used if it has a ST greater than yours but no greater than ST+3, if the cross bow has ST greater than yours you must use a mechanical device to cock the crossbow and this requires an action - this action cannot be reduce by talents.

I am going to calculate what I want the ST damage progression to be.
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Old 10-14-2020, 06:42 PM   #14
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
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Default Re: Weapons, Strength, and Damage

The realistic situation is somewhere between TFT and GURPS: a significant part of the damage benefit of strength comes from the ability to use heavier weapons, but another significant part is just doing more damage with the same weapon. Something like basing damage on the average of weapon min ST and wielder ST is fairly straightforward and works out okay.
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Old 10-14-2020, 06:59 PM   #15
hcobb
 
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Pacheco, California
Default Re: Weapons, Strength, and Damage

The next step I'd take towards realism is to double the effect of mundane armor and shields against cutting attacks and halve the damage inflicted after armor by non-cutting attacks.

You'll still one-shot foes by rolling double and triple damage, but armor won't be so useless.
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Old 10-14-2020, 07:23 PM   #16
Jeff Lord
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Default Re: Weapons, Strength, and Damage

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Originally Posted by Terquem View Post
I think there is definitely a place for a "wrong sized weapon," rule, from giant sized clubs to pixie sized halberds.
But, I see no reason why a halfling society would be prohibited from having halfling sized halberds doing damage based on the basic halberd, adjusted for reduced strength and suffering no DX penalty for use by a talented halberd figure.
Agreed. But I don't think that it was ever "prohibited." As a previous poster pointed out, the idea had been explored (at least superficially) in an issue of the Space Gamer.
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Old 10-22-2020, 06:43 AM   #17
David Bofinger
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Sydney, Australia
Default Re: Weapons, Strength, and Damage

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Originally Posted by Terquem View Post
All base damage is a factor of ST
One approach, not sure if this is what you're saying:
  • Instead of ST-specific weapons each entry in the weapons table is a family of weapons, each member of a family has a different ST requirement. So there's a family "sword" with members ST 8 sword, ST 9 sword, ...
  • Everything uses the HTH combat damage table. If this table isn't good enough or doesn't have enough steps, which to be honest it mightn't be and definitely doesn't, then write a better one with more granularity.
  • Each weapon family has a multiplier. For instance, suppose the multiplier for a sword is 2. Then a swordsman with ST 11 does the same damage as an unarmed character with ST 22. Clubs, mauls, spears, halberds, bows, crossbows, daggers, axes and who knows what else we might invent all have their own damage factors.
  • If this doesn't work well then maybe have damage factors like x3-8 (multiply the ST by 3 and subtract 8). Fool around until it seems to work.
I think this sort of approach might work pretty well. I don't know if this is what you meant or how similar it is to GURPS.
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Old 11-01-2020, 02:32 PM   #18
Kieddicus
 
Join Date: Oct 2020
Default Re: Weapons, Strength, and Damage

Don't think this is quite what you are looking for but I have believed this to be a problem for a long time and your post motivated me to write up a solution.

My solution is pretty simple when you hit with a melee attack you deal your HTH dmg plus your weapon dmg. I also adjusted all the dmg numbers for weapons and HTH ST values. Non-thrown ranged weapons still just deal their weapon dmg without adding HTH dmg.

Pic of adjusted stats.
https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net...8e&oe=5FC5ECAB
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Old 11-01-2020, 02:42 PM   #19
Terquem
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Idaho Falls
Default Re: Weapons, Strength, and Damage

that is a different way of doing it. It never occurred to me to think that way, but part of what you said is right. It isn't so much the damage that can be done, it's more of trying to accept a penalty for using a weapon that you are too weak to use, while trying to imagine much weaker kinds of creatures who will obviously make the same kinds of weapons the big folk use, it will only be smaller.
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Old 11-01-2020, 09:13 PM   #20
TippetsTX
 
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Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: North Texas
Default Re: Weapons, Strength, and Damage

My rule is +1 damage for every 3 points of ST over the required minimum or +2 damage if the weapon is two-handed.

The game also needs separate stats for small and giant-size figures. For example, here's the list from the CLUB/STAFF weapon group in my own game...

Club/Baton 1d-1 (ST 6)
Short Staff (halfling size) 1d (ST 8)
Quarterstaff 1d+1 (ST 10)
Two-handed Club 2d-2 (ST 12)
Iron Staff 2d+1 (ST 14)
Great Club (2H) 3d-3 (ST 18)
Giant Club 4d-4 (ST 24)
Giant Two-handed Club 5d-5 (ST 30)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kieddicus View Post
My solution is pretty simple when you hit with a melee attack you deal your HTH dmg plus your weapon dmg. I also adjusted all the dmg numbers for weapons and HTH ST values. Non-thrown ranged weapons still just deal their weapon dmg without adding HTH dmg.
TFT is extremely sensitive to damage modifiers and stacking dice so I wouldn't recommend this approach unless your goal is to make combat even more deadly than it already is.
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