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Old 10-15-2020, 01:50 AM   #1
ecz
 
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Join Date: Jan 2018
Default thrown weapons and facing

well, apologies it has been already asked.

it seems that rules specify that facing does not matter for missile attacks, while remain silent about TW.

does this implies that facing for TW counts and an attacker from rear gets the +4 AdjDX ?
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Old 10-15-2020, 05:40 AM   #2
phiwum
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
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Default Re: thrown weapons and facing

I'm newer than most posters here, but I think there are two schools of thought.

(1) There are a few areas where the rules use the word "missile weapons" when the reasonable interpretation ought to be "missile or thrown weapons", i.e., ranged weapons. I think most people regard facing rules to be one of those areas.

(2) You could make a case that a thrown weapon is slower, so a person facing the thrower could duck or dodge (not in the technical use of the word in ITL). I leaned to that interpretation as I read the rules, but then there should be a difference in ability to duck or dodge if engaged or not.

In the interest of simplicity and figgering others have thought more about this question than I have, I've decided to go with (1). Facing plays no role.
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Old 10-15-2020, 06:03 AM   #3
Shostak
 
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Default Re: thrown weapons and facing

Thrown weapons benefit from facing modifiers while missile weapons do not, though I really can't explain the the designer's rationale behind that feature, especially considering that thrown spells do not get this benefit. That said, this distinction between missile and thrown weapons does make for interesting (fun) decisions on the battlefield, even though it might not feel entirely realistic.
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Old 10-15-2020, 07:39 AM   #4
phiwum
 
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Default Re: thrown weapons and facing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shostak View Post
Thrown weapons benefit from facing modifiers while missile weapons do not, though I really can't explain the the designer's rationale behind that feature, especially considering that thrown spells do not get this benefit. That said, this distinction between missile and thrown weapons does make for interesting (fun) decisions on the battlefield, even though it might not feel entirely realistic.
Re-reading the text, I think that the rule is less ambiguous than I thought. On ITL 106, it says (emphasis added):
Quote:
A physical attack made from an enemy's side hex adds +2 to the attacker's DX. A physical attack made from an enemy's rear hex adds +4.
Seems to me a character two hexes away throwing a weapon is an attack made from two hexes away, not an attack made from a side or rear hex, so no bonus. It also seems to me that since a thrown weapon attack is a melee attack (whether engaged or not), it can be made from one hex away and facing would give a bonus in the case that the thrower is adjacent to the target.

This seems to be the literal reading of the rule. Whether it's also the intended reading is a little unclear to me. It gives a facing bonus iff the thrower is adjacent to the target, which is a little weird.

Please correct me if I'm missing something. The most unclear part of my interpretation is whether a thrown weapon is an attack from an adjacent hex when the thrower is non-adjacent.
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Old 10-15-2020, 08:06 AM   #5
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: thrown weapons and facing

I agree with this interpretation; the text clearly states that the bonus goes to an attack launched from a specific adjacent hex.
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Old 10-15-2020, 08:22 AM   #6
Skarg
 
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Default Re: thrown weapons and facing

Yeah, there is no definition of Side Hex or Rear Hex other than the adjacent hexes. And there would need to be a definition and/or diagram to even know which more distant attacking hexes are at the side or rear of a target. Without that, even if the intent were to give a +2 or +4, there would be nothing telling you which to apply in the hexes where it isn't obvious. The closest is the diagram for the forward 180 degree arc of hexes, but that is only for purposes of what you can see to make ranged attacks against.
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Old 10-28-2020, 08:19 PM   #7
TedT
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Default Re: thrown weapons and facing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shostak View Post
Thrown weapons benefit from facing modifiers while missile weapons do not, though I really can't explain the the designer's rationale behind that feature, especially considering that thrown spells do not get this benefit.
My feeling about Thrown Spells in this is that their name is really a misnomer, at least compared with Missile Weapons and Thrown Weapons. Thrown Spells do not "sail through the air." You cannot hit the wrong foe by mistake with a Thrown Spell - it either works on your intended target, or it fizzles and you lose just the one point of ST. Your foe's facing has no bearing on it, and neither can he dodge it.
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Old 10-29-2020, 02:00 AM   #8
Steve Plambeck
 
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Default Re: thrown weapons and facing

Another way I recently thought to describe it for someone: a Thrown Spell is something you form in the air over the target's head, and if it's successful it falls/descends on them. I'd call them "Dropped Spells", but that would surely confuse people into thinking that meant a failed spell, so no. I recall another closely related system liked to call them "Direct Spells". But referring to spells as "thrown" has such a long literary tradition, I just can't see changing it.

Perhaps instead, change the name of "Thrown Weapons" to "Throwable Weapons". That's still a bit awkward though.
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Old 10-29-2020, 12:04 PM   #9
Skarg
 
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Default Re: thrown weapons and facing

Quote:
Originally Posted by TedT View Post
My feeling about Thrown Spells in this is that their name is really a misnomer, at least compared with Missile Weapons and Thrown Weapons. Thrown Spells do not "sail through the air." You cannot hit the wrong foe by mistake with a Thrown Spell - it either works on your intended target, or it fizzles and you lose just the one point of ST. Your foe's facing has no bearing on it, and neither can he dodge it.
Absolutely. Notice for instance that the penalty to cast on an unmoving subject not in combat at all, or on yourself, gets no bonus at all.

Range and visibility (q.v. Blur) affect Thrown spell success, but facing certainly doesn't.
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Old 11-02-2020, 03:59 AM   #10
Nils_Lindeberg
 
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Default Re: thrown weapons and facing

When it comes to shooting along a spine I would go with shooter's/thrower's choice. If you can shoot along a wall and not hit the wall, that means that is a precedent for this kind of thing.

And when it comes to putting you back to a wall, often that wall is supposed to be straight, but with hexes, every other hex against the wall gives you protection from both the rear and the sides, while every other hex give you no side protection. And at other times you are standing with your back to a wall and you get the rear and one side hex protected, no matter where along the wall you stand depending on the hex "grain". Which is a little bit strange. And it is hard to get around this in a logical way.
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