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Old 11-12-2017, 03:15 PM   #31
Andreas
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Default Re: Defense bonus and ATR

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Do you want realistic limits or comic book physics? Realistically, by definition something moving many times faster than something else is in fact faster, it also will have greater air resistance, increased momentum, and lots of other things that aren't ever a problem for the Flash.
In this thread I'm asking for realistic bonuses to defense rolls. Sure, there are other considerations for a very fast character than just how it affects defense rolls (for example, how much more damage his attacks should do due to greater momentum and how it affects what considerations you should take to friction etc.), but I made this thread specifically for how it should affect defense rolls.
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Old 11-12-2017, 03:43 PM   #32
a humble lich
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Default Re: Defense bonus and ATR

As a rough estimate, I might use the Range/Speed table for guidance. There every doubling of speed gives -2 to hit. It would be reasonable to say Altered Time Rate could realistically give a similar bonus to defenses. Because defenses are typically half of skill, I would halve the bonus to +1 for every doubling of speed. Thus with Altered Time Rate 1, the character should also buy Enhanced Defense +1, at Altered Time Rate 3 this would increase to Defense +2, etc. This means the bonus to defense is exponential with Altered Time Rate, so it does not become excessive. I would also recommend the first bonus to defense should be bought with Combat Reflexes or Enhanced Time Sense.

Note: in no way am I saying that this defense bonus should be free. Just some guidance on how much more defense a speedster should have if it was a a character I was making. And if you want more dodgy speedsters, I think it is reasonable to not halve the bonus and say you should buy +2 defense for every doubling of speed.
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Old 11-12-2017, 05:41 PM   #33
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: Defense bonus and ATR

A penalty to attach would be better than a bonus to defense. A penalty equal to Speed/Range modifier would work (which would be -12 to skill to attack a character with ATR 5 and Basic Speed 30).
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Old 11-12-2017, 05:46 PM   #34
mr beer
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Default Re: Defense bonus and ATR

A penalty to attack makes sense if the speedster is zipping around but what if they are fighting toe-to-toe and only moving as necessary to attack/defend? That's where the "bonus to defend" concept comes in as our speedster sees the pathetically slow attack coming and steps easily aside.
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Old 11-12-2017, 08:05 PM   #35
sir_pudding
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Default Re: Defense bonus and ATR

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Originally Posted by mr beer View Post
A penalty to attack makes sense if the speedster is zipping around but what if they are fighting toe-to-toe and only moving as necessary to attack/defend? That's where the "bonus to defend" concept comes in as our speedster sees the pathetically slow attack coming and steps easily aside.
Then he is accelerating at a fantastic pace, just as rapidly decelerating and is going to be pushing a lot of air around to do so.
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Old 11-12-2017, 08:32 PM   #36
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: Defense bonus and ATR

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If that is poses a problem, you could just do it the other way around and give the discount to ATR instead.
Defense Bonus only while using Altered Time Rate and Altered Time Rate only while using Defense Bonus are rather different powers.
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Old 11-12-2017, 08:36 PM   #37
RyanW
 
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Default Re: Defense bonus and ATR

ATR specifically states that it "affects how fast you move when you react, but not how quickly you react in the first place." The speedster who "sees the pathetically slow attack coming and steps easily aside" has ETS and Enhanced Dodge (or just extremely high Basic Speed for a good base Dodge score), in addition to ATR. Altered Time Rate on its own is pretty unrealistic--not just in the sense that normal people don't have it, but in the sense that any being who has that ability should have other related abilities.
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Old 11-12-2017, 08:46 PM   #38
mr beer
 
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Default Re: Defense bonus and ATR

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ATR specifically states that it "affects how fast you move when you react, but not how quickly you react in the first place." The speedster who "sees the pathetically slow attack coming and steps easily aside" has ETS and Enhanced Dodge (or just extremely high Basic Speed for a good base Dodge score), in addition to ATR. Altered Time Rate on its own is pretty unrealistic--not just in the sense that normal people don't have it, but in the sense that any being who has that ability should have other related abilities.
True. I like the way that 4e separates out different elements of superhuman builds but ATR feels a bit artificial as a singular power.
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Old 11-12-2017, 08:54 PM   #39
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: Defense bonus and ATR

In truth, it is a hybrid of Compartmentalized Mind and Extra Attack, with an increase in Basic Move added in. It might be more worthwhile to spend the points on +5 Basic Speed in place of one level of ATR, as you would likely end up going first and possess a quite good dodge. Give your super DX 14, HT 14, and Combat Reflexes, and you have someone capable of dodging on a 16-.
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Old 11-12-2017, 09:02 PM   #40
Rupert
 
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Default Re: Defense bonus and ATR

I would certainly apply a speed penalty to any ranged attacks on a speedster who used their extra moves to zip about, and probably to any melee attacks via 'wait' actions. If they end their turn in reach of someone unless they've been running around them in circles I'd be inclined to not give them the benefit of this - bad planning should have consequences (or good planning on the part of the opponents).

Thus if an otherwise average character had ATR3, for four actions per turn, they could Move (run 5 yards), Move (sprint 6 yards), Move (sprint 6 yards), and Move (sprint 6 yards), for a total movement of 23 yards and -6 to ranged attacks against them (aside from those of someone they were running right at or away from if they didn't think to put a few turns in there). If they turn that last Move into an All-Out Defence (Increased Dodge) they move 19 yards in total (-5 to hit) and get +2 to Dodge.

I think that fairly represents using the extra actions to not get hit.

If one wants to reflect a more reactive increase in speed, Enhanced Defences is clearly the way to go (and I'd probably expect all to be bought at once), and I'd allow ATR as a prerequisite for it. I'd most likely use the recommended cap of three levels, and I'd certainly not allow more than +1 Enhanced Defences per level of ATR (Looking up the total number of actions on the size table for a cap would be appealing). Extra bonuses to defences, especially Dodge is very powerful, and they should be approached with caution.
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